Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rhaedas · 10-04-2007, 03:31 PM

That's some twisted justification.

shirley knott · 10-04-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Surely one needs to step back and take a wider perspective, and accept the Bible's premises before making judgments. If one is to close one's mind to the possibility that the Bible deity is the creator of everything and has a higher moral standard than we tend to have, one may come to different conclusions compared to those one would get if treating the deity as on the same level as oneself.

I would like to focus for just a moment on this, as I find the bolded comment particularly obnoxious and unsupportable.
Whence cometh the notion that anyone's mind is a priori closed to the possibility that, granted the existence of a deity, it might have higher moral standards?
The problem is that on the evidence, the Judeo-Christian deity does not have higher moral standards than your average run-of-the-mill bog standard murderer, rapist, or generic thug.
It is, at best, a petulant spoiled child acting out the very worst fantaisies of an inflamed imagination.
If you choose to discuss some other god, well, I would still need to see some evidence of this allegedly higher moral standard.
[And do note that the phrasing 'higher ... standard' requires that the judgement be made by us, using our tools. The consideration of whether a deity does or does not have higher moral standards is already a question of evaluation. It is inadmissable on the grounds of what is asked to assert that "mere humans cannot judge" these matters.]

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

chrisrkline · 10-04-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

I find it curious that some defenders of the Bible are willing to defend Biblical genocide, like the writer of Termites and Canaanites, who argued that those Canaanites were so evil that they deserve to be exterminated like termites.

Surely one needs to step back and take a wider perspective, and accept the Bible's premises before making judgments. If one is to close one's mind to the possibility that the Bible deity is the creator of everything and has a higher moral standard than we tend to have, one may come to different conclusions compared to those one would get if treating the deity as on the same level as oneself. We should not presume that we have a right to life. Surely what the deity gives, the deity can take away. If we abuse the right to life, and we do, why should we have life and breath?

Perhaps it is true that none of us deserves to live, even the best of us being harmful to others and to ourselves- greedy, lazy, arrogant, mendacious, impure and hateful- worse than a waste of space. Maybe if the deity gets rid of some of the worst influences in the world, the world becomes a better place. Maybe the deity should have a clean-out more often. And maybe a quick sword in the belly is nothing compared to an ineluctable eternity of shameful self-hatred.

This is the ad hockiest of ad hoc arguments. How can we hope to have a reasonable conversation with a theist if we are not allowed to judge the morals of God? How do you judge the divine guidance of other theistic work, such as the Koran?

And no, a quick sword to the belly is not as bad as an eternity of torment in hell. But, then nothing in the world is as bad as an eternity of torment. But if this is the choice, it is not saying much about the morals of this God.

Clouseau · 10-04-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisrkline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Surely one needs to step back and take a wider perspective, and accept the Bible's premises before making judgments. If one is to close one's mind to the possibility that the Bible deity is the creator of everything and has a higher moral standard than we tend to have, one may come to different conclusions compared to those one would get if treating the deity as on the same level as oneself. We should not presume that we have a right to life. Surely what the deity gives, the deity can take away. If we abuse the right to life, and we do, why should we have life and breath?

Perhaps it is true that none of us deserves to live, even the best of us being harmful to others and to ourselves- greedy, lazy, arrogant, mendacious, impure and hateful- worse than a waste of space. Maybe if the deity gets rid of some of the worst influences in the world, the world becomes a better place. Maybe the deity should have a clean-out more often. And maybe a quick sword in the belly is nothing compared to an ineluctable eternity of shameful self-hatred.

Quote:

This is the ad hockiest of ad hoc arguments. How can we hope to have a reasonable conversation with a theist if we are not allowed to judge the morals of God?

Go right ahead, judge. But don't suppose that it is realistic to judge deity as if such a being is creation rather than creator.

GenesisNemesis · 10-04-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Go right ahead, judge. But don't suppose that it is realistic to judge deity as if such a being is creation rather than creator.

Now, how can you possibly judge that the deity has a higher moral standard? After all, you are creation.

Clouseau · 10-04-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Go right ahead, judge. But don't suppose that it is realistic to judge deity as if such a being is creation rather than creator.

Now, how can you possibly judge that the deity has a higher moral standard? After all, you are creation.

Where is the logic in that?

GenesisNemesis · 10-04-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Where is the logic in that?

Where's the logic in saying

1. God is the Creator
2. Therefore he can be a tyrant

?

Clouseau · 10-04-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Where is the logic in that?

Where's the logic in saying

1. God is the Creator
2. Therefore he can be a tyrant

?

Indeed he can. If he is, caterwauling in the outer darkness will be a waste of breath.

GenesisNemesis · 10-04-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Indeed he can. If he is, caterwauling in the outer darkness will be a waste of breath.

I asked where is the logic, not if he can or can't.

Clouseau · 10-04-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Indeed he can. If he is, caterwauling in the outer darkness will be a waste of breath.

I asked where is the logic, not if he can or can't.

Oh, it's logical ok. Check the wording, though.

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10-04-2007, 03:31 PM	#11
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	That's some twisted justification.

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