aa5874

You blatantly mis-represented my post.


This is a blatant mis-representation and you may never admit your error.

When will you say I am correct?

Look at the post again. Show me where I did everything to draw attention away from the errors.

Dave31

Yes, GD, and that's the whole point, which you continue to slide around at every opportunity with one straw man and red herring after another. If you actually knew Acharya's work, instead of pretending to, as you always do - and as others here do as well, because they blatantly state they are ignorant of both Acharya's work and the subject at hand - you would know where these images are. She provided plenty of them in "Christ Conspiracy" and "Suns of God," for example. She also provides a lot of them in "Christ in Egypt." http://www.stellarhousepublishing.co...stinegypt.html

Again, the point is that these gods and goddesses in cruciform - in the shape of a cross or crucifix - were frequently used in order to provide protection for their followers. They can be found on many Egyptian coffins and sarcophaguses. They weren't obscure. They were common, so a lot of people would have seen them. They would have expected a god or goddess with his or her arms or wings outstretched to provide protection, just as Christians do today with crucifixes on walls, doorways and on gravestones, etc., or wearing them around the neck.

A Christian monk traveling to Nepal found many images of the Indian/Nepalese god Indra in the shape of a cross in crossroads, designed to protect the traveler. I repeat that the god in the shape of a cross is PRE-CHRISTIAN, NON-CHRISTIAN and very common, which is why Tertullian brought it up. It's a logical design for protection - a god or goddess with its arms outstretched. And it certainly does NOT belong to or originate with Christianity, no matter how much sophistry you or other believers come up with.

The Pillsbury Doughboy is a very silly argument on your part, because he isn't a god, he isn't pre-xian and he isn't in this posture in order to protect his followers. It's a juvenile attempt to ridicule into submission. Which is why you love to show it off at every opportunity. It just demonstrates the level you will stoop to shore-up the xian faith at all costs.

GakuseiDon

OK. So there are lots of images of gods being on a crucifix from pre-Christian times. Can you give three, please? Or is asking for evidence a straw man and red herring?

The last time we went through this, I spent about 2 years trying to get you to give me the page references in the books where she cites primary (i.e. pre-Christian, not 19th C!) sources, so I could check for myself. I actually looked through the first two books (she hadn't published the third at that time), and couldn't find anything. So, because I couldn't find anything, and you wouldn't give me the page numbers (which is absolutely bizarre), you kept claiming I hadn't read the books.

So I'm not interested in playing that game again, Dave. Just give me the primary resources that Acharya cites in her books for 3 pre-Christian examples of gods being depicted on crosses. Not weird claims about 19th Century writers coming across material that the British government must have destroyed (since no-one else can find that material), not weird claims about "Atlantis", not saying "If you can't find them, then I'm not going to tell you!" Just the primary resources that Acharya uses in her books.

If you don't know what the primary resources are, or if you can't find them in her books either, then just repeat your usual claims of "It's in the book somewhere... honestly!"

(ETA) I know that she makes the claims that such evidence exists, but from memory (it's been a while since I've read her books) she doesn't cite where that evidence exists. She just repeats claims from 19th and early 20th C writers. If I'm wrong -- if she does have the cites -- I'd love to know what they are, and I'm sure that in the interests of promoting her work you'll want to share that information. Just three examples, for me to follow up. Thanks.

No, Tertullian didn't claim anything about gods in the shape of a cross, or gods being on crosses. He said that certain aspects of banners and other things gave the shape of a cross, and the robes of a man upon it. But then, he was looking for parallels to Jesus being on the cross. If he had known of any gods on a cross, he certainly would have mentioned them, since it would have strengthened his case.

Why should we even CARE, from a religious perspective? :shrug: Let's be clear: I have no problems with gods being portrayed with arms outstretched. I suspect it is a universal sign for welcome.

I'd still like to see any examples of Roman or Greek gods portrayed that way, though, just for my own interest.

It was a response to an image that Acharya gave when I was debating her on that other forum. She claimed the image represented Horus in cruciform, which anyone looking at the image could easily see was utterly ridiculous. But I can't find the image she gave now, and I would love to show people the image she claimed was evidence, so that I could show why the Pillsbury Doughboy was pertinent to the discussion. Can you find her claimed "Horus in cruciform" image for me, Dave? It is important evidence for her level of scholarship.

***

By the way, let me ask you again, for the third time. Dave, in your last post I think you screwed up Justin's comment. Since we are both claiming that we are interpreting Justin correctly, it would be good to clear this up. You wrote (my emphasis):

"Yes, it WAS "put symbolically," so the pre-Christian Pagans, who most assuredly did have gods on crosses, recognized that this motif was not literal but symbolic".

But Justin is saying the opposite. He wrote that

"But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically".

So:
* You are writing that it was put symbolically, so the pre-Christian pagans (who had gods on crosses) recognized this symbolism.
* Justin is writing that it was put symbolically, so the pre-Christian pagans (who DIDN'T have gods on crosses) DIDN'T recognize the symbolism.

Do you agree that your interpretation has problems?

GakuseiDon

Acharya's image that was supposedly showing Horus in cruciform used to be on her website here:
http://truthbeknown.com/images/horus%20cruciform.jpg

But it looks like she has moved it, mores the pity. You will all laugh when you see it! It's hilarious! You'll see where the Pillsbury Doughboy fits in.

(ETA) I did find this one of an Egyptian god in cruciform. Acharya's "Doughboy" isn't quite as funny, though not far off:

Toto

Original Horus Crucified Thread: Jesus, the Sun of God MERGED with Christianity = Astrology? and Zeitgeist scholarly?

Don even links to Acharya's Forum, where she posts:

Toto

At one point I posted an image of Dionysus in a procession, and the crucifixion connection was obvious, although it was not labeled crucifixion. It wasn't from Archarya.

There is a graphic of Horus with outstretched arms as the dome of heaven in Egyptian antiquities in the British Museum at page 143. It doesn't look anything like a crucifixion, but for comparative religion parallels, it's probably close enough.

GakuseiDon

You may be thinking of Freke & Gandy's "Jesus Mysteries", where they are bringing a large cross-shape to Dionysus, who is a child. According to SkeptiWiki:
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/The_Jesus_Mysteries

Technically, Freke and Gandy are fairly close to correct when they write, "A sarcophagus of the second and third centuries C.E. from Rome pictures an aged disciple bringing the divine child a large cross." The aged man is more likely a silenus than a disciple. More problematic is the meaning of this "cross." ... Kerynyi has a footnote to this where he points out that another scholar, Erika Simon, describes it as a "staff adorned with a large bow." ... Kerynyi himself understands the "mysterious cruciform structure" to be the wooden understructure of the idol that Burkert described above.

Definitely, I agree. It would be interesting to see the image.

Toto

Nope. It was an idol hung on a structure being paraded about - clearly not a cross or a crucifixion, but the sort of image that could be taken as one.

Are you able to see the image in the link I gave you?

GakuseiDon

If you can find the image, that would be great.

Yes, it shows Horus apparently forming the firmament with his outstretched arms. Thanks for that.

Kapyong

Gday,

I did just that above, you snipped it all out.
Now you disingenuously ask what I already answered !
So typical of your dishonest bluster.


Your post :

* failed to use any form of "I was wrong".
That's how a normal, honest and decent admission of error goes.
You failed to say anything like that.

* failed to use any any word like "error" or "mistake".
A genuine admission of error would actually admit error. You failed to say anything like that.

Nothing in your post stated you were wrong.

All you did was say someone else was right.
and
post the correct passage.

Someone reading this post without any background on the thread would NOT KNOW you made any error, because no where in your post do you state or imply that you were wrong !

You did everything you could to AVOID drawing attention to YOUR error.

But now you pretend that posting the correct passage is the same as actual direct admission of error. And you now dishonestly pretend to be a honest and open about your errors, when the evidence is crystal clear that the exact opposite is true.

Frankly your bulldust and preaching is a blight on this forum, which is why so many people have you on ignore.


Kapyong