TySixtus

I was trying to quote Edith Hamilton, but I couldn't find her book (my room a is a mess right now!! ARRGH) and I didn't want to mis-quote her. She is, quite right, an expert on mythology.
Taken as a whole- Virgin birth (whether concieved without intercourse, or by other miraculous means), Ressurection, Wine, Bread, Water, disciples, winter and spring celebrations (December/March or Christmas/Easter), relationship between God and a supposed son of god (Hercules, many of the Greek Pantheon, born as they were of Zeus) and the plethora of other similarities between Christianity and the various other religions surrounding the region at the time- I am forced to believe, and conclude, that Christianity is simply a remnant of those other, older religions, that was in the right place at the right time, and that appealed to the majority of the population at the time. By that I mean they were poor, uneducated, and confused. Promising them eternal life by letting their rich oppressors walk all over them (Blessed are the meek, Blessed are those who mourn.) just made things easier for the Church to maintain control...
No wonder it's called the "Dark Ages"


Ty

CX

If I'm not mistaken all that information comes from various websites. Furthermore none of it is true. Search through the archives and you can find a previous discussion we had on it.

GakuseiDon

"Virgin birth (whether concieved without intercourse, or by other miraculous means)"

Yes, but you can see that often the claim isn't just "virgin birth", but "Virgin Devaki", "Virgin Nana", etc.

Resurrection

Yes, many of the pagan religions had a dying-reviving god, usually related to agriculture and the revival of the seasons (e.g. Dionysus and the vine). Others, like Krishna, died and eventually ascended to Heaven. But how far do you take this? Is this surface similarity enough to draw any conclusions with respect to Christianity? Is that what Edith Hamilton says?

Wine, Bread, Water

These are social conventions in a lot of societies, like the Passover. True, Christianity may have borrowed some of this from pagan cultures over the first few centuries, but the origin (in the Gospels at least) is the Passover meal. Wouldn't you be surprised if Christianity DIDN'T have these things? Again, how do you go from "similarity" to "copying"?

disciples

I've never heard this one before. What are the similarities?

winter and spring celebrations (December/March or Christmas/Easter)

Christmas took about 3 centuries to be adopted by the early church. If Christianity copied, why wasn't this in the Gospels? Why did it take so long to be adopted, and why the resistance?

Easter was the time of the Passover, when Jesus was crucified. What are the similarities?

relationship between God and a supposed son of god (Hercules, many of the Greek Pantheon, born as they were of Zeus)

Jesus has more in common with the Jewish Wisdom philosophy, with a mixture of Platonism.

Heheh. Check out the claims by the pagan philosopher Celsus. He said much the same thing 1800 years ago.

There is no doubt that Christianity has copied from pagan thought and pagan religions over the first few centuries (celebrations and festivals, language and philosophy), but most of the "Christ myth" claims (like a crucified Horus, "Virgin mothers") cannot be found in pre-Christian literature. I know that nothing I can write will probably change your mind on this, but all I can do is urge you to check these things out for yourself. Check mythology websites and reference books, and you'll see a different picture presented.

GakuseiDon

CX, is there a skeptical website that has examined these claims? These claims pop up every few months or so, and the only ones I know that have looked into this are apologetic ones. A good skeptical website might be more believable.

Bernard Muller

I found that on Dionysus and wine, from a noted apologist's (J.P. Holding) web site:
http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_DDD.html

At last, there are ancient authors named, but no wedding, and no changing of water into wine:

"...the motif of changing water to wine is not present in the Dionysus legends; the jugs of Elis, for example, were not filled with water but were empty, and the fount of wine in Andros did not replace one of water...Most writers acknowledge that in the Johannine narrative there is an implicit contrast between water used for Jewish purificatory rites and the wine given by Jesus; the former is characteristic of the old order, the latter of the new...in the ancient literature Plutarch says that there was a spring at Haliartus with clear, sparkling, wine-colored, very pleasant-tasting water in which the newly born Dionysus was bathed. Also, Pliny says that at Andros, on the festival known as Theodosia, a spring in the temple of Bacchus flowed with wine. Pausanias says that at Elis the priests of Dionysus placed three large empty cauldrons in a sealed room to find them filled with wine when they returned the next day. And Ovid says that Liber, the Italian god identified with Bacchus, gave the daughters of the Delian king Anius the power to turn things into wine, a story associated with Dionysus...However, from these references it is obvious that there are significant differences between the Dionysus legend and the story in John 2: the spring at Haliartus flowed with water, and the one at Andros flowed with wine, not water that had once been wine; and the empty cauldrons in the Elis temple were filled with wine rather than water subsequently changed into wine, key elements in John's story."

Best regards, Bernard

Roland

Does anybody know if Joseph Campbell ever made these comparisons or others like them?

Roland

Edith Hamilton also mentions a story of a centaur (named Chiron, I think) who, I believe, she describes as a god who willingly sacrificed himself so that Prometheus could go free. I don't have a copy of her book in front of me right now, but I will give more detail when I get a chance.

TySixtus

Yes, read 'The Hero With a Thousand Faces' Also, he did a series of PBS interviews shortly before his death that were great, we watched them in our Myth, Magic, Metaphore class in high school. Then we watched Excalibur! my favorite part is when Uther hacks off that guys arm in the swamp, and they show white bone and squirting blood. That was pretty gruesome for 1981.

Ty

CX

Not as far as I know. I suspect there's little interest amongst those who might be qualified. The volume of misinformation on the web in this area is legion. I did somewhat of a mini-survey some time ago here. I'm not sure where it is.

Toto

Read the comment by Richard Carrier on 16 Crucified Saviors in the Infidels Library for some information and comments on the lack of good information.