Doug Shaver

That might work, if the only issue were whether they were correctly interpreting the Bible.

I think a much more fundamental issue is why anyone should care what the Bible really says about hell.

Perm

I pretty agree with Doug here on the more fundamental question of "So what?" Give me some evidence to believe anything your bible says, much less argue semantics with me.

However, I am curious to hear how YOU would describe what happens in hell and to unbelievers, or the "etcs." You appear to be suggesting that translators are making hell sound much worse and less humane than it really is, correct? Can you indulge us for just a moment, and describe how humane and joyous this eternal residence for the unbelievers might be?

Followup question: If this place for the unbelievers really isn't *that* bad.. why bother listening to God's(tm) word? What's the motivation?

juergen

I second the question.

Itsamysteryhuh, could you define Universalism in the context of your point? As in everyone gets saved and there's no hell, or everyone gets saved but there's a purgatory-style place where people get purified? I haven't had the chance to read up on it yet. Any articles or pointers would be appreciated!

juergen

itsamysteryhuh

The motivation would be the gift of eternal life (as opposed to taking part in the shame, etc. of the second death (eternal death) in the lake of fire (Gehenna). Remember? I guess some really don't want to live for whatever reasons, but some of us do.

There's no reason to believe there is no "hell" (unless you just don't believe in the Bible for whatever reasons, etc.). The term "hell" is found throughout the Bible, but I'm not familiar with any "purgatory-style" place where people get purified.

If the Bible is true (and it has much support for being true), then it seems you die once and are then resurrected at the judgement. At that point, it seems that it will be made clear who will be given the gift of eternal life (apparently pain-free, without worries, etc.) and who will not be (those that will "have their part in the lake of fire").

However, I can't decide for you what to believe and what not to believe. I personally feel there must be something more, and the Bible is what makes the most sense to me out of all the possibilities. If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter anyway (I'll be in the same "boat" after death as everyone else)... nothing to lose. If I'm right, then there definitely seems to be something to gain by believing. Either way, there are just some things that can't be explained, proven, or disproven by science, so we all have to make choices regarding these things.

itsamysteryhuh

You are free to believe/disbelieve whatever you wish, whatever the reasons for your belief/disbelief may be.


In "hell" (the grave) you are dead. At Gehenna, you are either saved or take part in a "second death" for eternity via fire (no gift of eternal life)... basically put out of your misery along with being put out of existence.

juergen

The big link on Universalism in the first few centuries of Christianity is still making me want to know what that concept of Universalism means.

if it means everyone is getting into heaven, how can that be interpreted when one believes that there is a 2nd, eternal, death?

I read about an Universalist position that stated that the lake of fire was a place where people chose to go to, but only stayed temporarily. At any given point they'd all choose to be rescued, which is what God would do, and voila, everyone is in heaven.

What does Universalism mean? Or what does it mean to you?

Edit #2: Please ignore the following:
Edit #1: Also, how does your view on eternal punishment differ from a "regular" Christian's understanding of it? Earlier in the thread you said you believed something different, but based on your last couple of posts, I can only conclude that your view isn't any different from the traditional view of eternal punishment.

spin

This is getting like a mantra, isn't it?

Which of the following, all translated as "hell", means "grave"?

1. hades (Mt 11:23)
2. tartaros (2 Pet 2:4)
3. gehenna (Mt 5:30)

But, though being dead, you can be tormented in flames, right? (Lk 16:23-4)

"At" here gives the impression of dealing with an event.

Where exactly in the bible do you find this notion of being put out of existence?


spin

aa5874

Your problem is that your belief does not require any direct evidence , your belief about hell is re-inforced by your imagination. Whatever you imagine hell to be is true.

So, if two theists have opposing views about Hell, they can use their Bible and quote scriptures to augment their opposing views, although none can show that a hell actually exists.

And whether a theist interprets a word, from some language, to mean "hell with fire" or "hell without fire", is of very little consequence to me, since I find that their Bibles cannot be trusted and are unreliable.

Now, if you are wrong about hell, it should obvious that there may be something to lose. It is not prudent to use your imagination to guarantee your outcome, that's just wrong.
There may be many possibilities, if you're wrong about hell, and perhaps there is a God who will burn, with fire and brimstone, forever, those who follow Jesus of Nazareth, since these followers should have known that he is not a God or the son of one.

ApostateAbe

The way I see it, the words "hades" and "gehenna" are used interchangeably in the New Testament.

"Gehenna" is used commonly in the gospels, with fire and suffering and so on, 13 times or more, like in Matthew 5:22.

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery hell [gehenna]."

"Hades" is used ten times, and some very prominent verses associate Hades with fire and suffering the same as the verses that mention Gehenna, like Luke 16:23 onward.

"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'..."

"Sheol" is a Hebrew Old Testament word, and I see no evidence that it has any relation to either Hades or Gehenna. It is merely a dark underground grave, for everyone both the good and the wicked. The wicked go there sooner than the good, supposedly.

itsamysteryhuh

You see no evidence because "Sheol" does not have any relation to Gehenna (but does to Hades).


I'm not familiar with such a position, other than my familiarity with a movie called "Purgatory." I haven't seen support for Universalism in the Bible, so I guess it really doesn't mean anything to me. Do you know of any Bible verses that might support such a position? If so, I'd be interested in reading them.