aa5874

Your explanation does NOT make much sense.

There is NO real difference in meaning to "a dove" and "the bodily form of a dove".

A bird which is perceived to be in the "bodily form of a dove" can be considered a dove.

DCHindley

One thing I found interesting about the way Origen spoke about Celsus' account, and Jerome's account of the Gospel of the Hebrews, is that both rebutted these positions from the POV of the canonical Gospels (the dove and "bodily") in spite of the fact that Celsus calls it a "bird of the air" and the GoH calls it the "whole fount of the Spirit".

Yet Epiphanius, in Panerion chapter 30 (on Ebionites), chapter 13 (on their version of Matthew, called the "Hebrew Gospel"), says it says:

When the people were baptised (Lk 3:21), Jesus also came and was baptised by John (Lk 3;21; Mt3;13; Mk 1:9). And as he [Jesus] came up from the water, the heavens were opened and he [John? Jesus?] saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove that descended and entered into him. And a voice (sounded) from heaven that said: Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased (Mk 1:11). And again, I have this day begotten thee (a variant of Lk 3:23 in Codex D).

And immediately a great light shone round about the place. When John saw this, it saith, he saith unto him: Who art thou, Lord? And again a voice from heaven (rang out) to Him: This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased (Mt 3:17). And then, it saith, John fell down before him [Jesus] and said: I beseech thee, Lord baptise thou me. But he prevented him [John] and said Suffer it; for thus is it fitting that everything should be fulfilled (Mk 3:14f).

So, if this is the same gospel as Jerome describes (as the grouping of "Hebrew Gospel" fragments from various sources under the headings Gospel of the Nazaraeans, Gospel of the Ebionites and Gospel of the Hebrews is somewhat artificial), then it had a quite different order of events and heavenly revelations to John and Jesus than we find in the canonical gospels and Jeromes' account.

It looks like this:

Mark 1:	Matthew 3:	Luke 2:	John 1:	Hebrew Gospel (as preserved by Epiphanius)	Gospel of the Hebrews (as preserved by Jerome)
			28 This [preaching by John the Baptist] took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.' 31 I myself did not know him; but for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel."		“Behold, the mother of our Lord and His brethren said to Him, John Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins; let us go and be baptized by him. But He said to them, what sin have I committed that I should go and be baptized by him? Unless, haply, the very words which I have said are only ignorance.”
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.	13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.	21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying,		a) When the people were baptised, Jesus also came and was baptised by John
	14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented.			See (f) below
10 And when he [Jesus? John?] came up out of the water, immediately	16 And when Jesus was baptized, he [Jesus? John?] went up immediately from the water,			b) And as he [Jesus] came up from the water, the heavens were opened.
he [Jesus? John?] saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him [Jesus] like a dove;	and behold, the heavens were opened and he [Jesus? John?] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him [Jesus];	the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove,	32 And John bore witness, "I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him.	c) and he [John? Jesus?] saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove that descended and entered into him	And it came to pass when the Lord was come up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended and rested upon him,
			33 I myself did not know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, `He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'	See (e) below
11 and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."	17 and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."	and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."	34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."	d) And a voice (sounded) from heaven that said: Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased. And again, I have this day begotten thee.	and said unto him: My son, in all the prophets was I waiting for thee that thou shouldst come, and I might rest in thee. For thou art my rest, thou art my first begotten son [tu es filius meus primogenitus], that reignest for ever.
				e) And immediately a great light shone round about the place. When John saw this, it saith, he saith unto him [Jesus]: Who art thou, Lord? And again a voice from heaven (rang out) to Him: This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.
				f) And then, it saith, John fell down before him [Jesus] and said: I beseech thee, Lord baptise thou me. But he prevented him [John] and said Suffer it; for thus is it fitting that everything should be fulfilled).

DCH (on my break, reply composed yesterday night)

PhilosopherJay

Hi DCHindley,

More wonderful stuff. Thanks.

I have been thinking about the point you made that Origen is only referring to the phrase "in bodily form" in Origen's "Commentary on Matthew." It is possible. Unfortunately the section of book VI in which we could expect Origen to discuss more precisely the meaning of this material, when he covers John's statement about the dove coming down is missing. All we really have to go by is Origen's statement in 6.31:

The form when we break it down is this:

which Gospel/s doesn't tell us --- Gospel does tell us

Gospel/s do not tell us	Gospel does tell us
1. John doesn't tells us --- "where the savior comes from	Matthew does tell us "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan to John, to be baptized of him."
2. Matthew does not tell us where in Galilee he comes from	Mark does tell us “the place in Galilee; he says, "And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in Jordan."
3a. Luke does not tell us where Jesus comes from	Luke tells us "that immediately after the baptism, as He was coming up, heaven was opened to Him, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in bodily form like a dove."
3b. Other gospel do not tell us what Luke does
4. Other Gospels do not tell us of John preventing the Lord	Matthew does tell us of John's preventing the Lord, saying to the Saviour, "I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me?" None of the others added this after Matthew, so that they might not be saying just the same as he. And what the Lord rejoined, "Suffer it now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness," this also Matthew alone recorded.

If Origen just meant that Luke only tells us about the bodily form of a dove, then he has not said what he meant, but something quite different.


In any case, I'm afraid that I have found another textual variation to increase the size of your chart. This is from Significant textual variants
. Justin Martyr seems to bear witness to another form of it when he says that there was a fire in the water when Jesus went in the water.

Isn't this fun?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

DCHindley

I've reformatted the citation from Origen's commentary on John to bring out what Origen assumes: that his readers already know what all four gospels agree on:
That immediately after the baptism, as Jesus was coming up from the water, heaven was opened to Him, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him like a dove.

What he is doing is then identifying what details that the various gospels individually add to this picture:

Jesus came from Nazareth (Mk) in Galilee (Mt) to the River Jordan to be baptised by John the Baptist (Mk, MT & Lk). John objected that it would be better if Jesus should baptise him, but Jesus reassures John that baptizing Jesus will "fulfil all righteousness." (Mt only) And that the Spirit descended bodily in the form of a dove, that is, was not a vision (Lk).

DCH

aa5874

The authors of gMatthew and gMark did NOT claim that it was a Vision. Your assertion is unsubstantiated.

In Myth fables SPIRIT can take a "bodily form" to be seen.

1. In gMatthew, the "Spirit of God descended LIKE a dove. Matthew 3.16

2. In gMark, "the Spirit LIKE a dove descended upon him" Mark 1.10

3. In gLuke, the Holy Ghost in a bodily shape LIKE a dove descended upom him." Luke 3.22

PhilosopherJay

Hi DCHindley,

There appears to be no Second or Third century quotes of the relevant passage from Mark or Matthew. Only in the Fourth Century do we have quotes from the relevant passages, at least as far as I could discover. Therefore, we cannot be certain what Origen meant.

I was surprised to find that no ancient commentator wrote a line by line discussion of Mark, as several people did for the three other gospels. Nobody. I thought that was interesting. It indicates to me that there wasn't much interest in it and people didn't think it was important.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

andrewcriddle

For Matthew see Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3
Andrew Criddle

aa5874

Irenaeus is NOT a credible source. Writings attributed to Irenaeus show that the writer did NOT even know who was the Governor of Judea under Claudius or the assumed age of Jesus when he suffered.

And further, claims about authorship, dating, and chronology of the the four gospels by "Irenaeus" have been REJECTED by probably ALL Scholars.

DCHindley

Jay,

I am not here referring to whether manuscripts of the early church writers ever say "chrEstos" rather than "christos", but actual statements by them about Marcion that suggest that He or his followers called him "chrEstos".

Also, if Marcionites ever called Jesus "Isa" it would have to be Aramaic/Syriac speaking Marcionites, and I am not aware of Marcion or his immediate followers being considered anything other than Greek speakers. If anything was "Good" it would be his concept of the Father God, not Jesus. It is his Father God concept, above and beyond the just Jewish God, that demonstrates Platonic influence. In fact, they most resemble Neo-Platonism, although the formal expression of this form of Platonism is usually dated around the time of Plotinus.

Since Andrew has apparently read extensively on this subject (based on posts to blogs etc), maybe he would be so kind as to contribute something on the matter of possible Platonic or Gnostic influence on Marcion?

DCH

PhilosopherJay

Hi andrewcriddle,

Interesting. Thanks.

Irenaeus not only tells us the line, but exactly where the line came from:

One might explain this excellent knowledge of the derivation of the line by saying that Irenaeus made up the line and inserted the line into Matthew based on the two lines from scripture that he wanted to use to refute Marcion.

aa5874, is correct that Irenaeus offers us the strange idea that Jesus was 50 years old when he was crucified. That would place the crucifixion about the year 44-46 (based on the chronology of Matthew, born 6-4 BCE). That would be in the reign of Claudius. Stephen Huller has done some great work on this:


Warmly,

Jay Raskin