Freethought & Rationalism Archive

youngalexander · 02-09-2006, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Must be something about it to cause many many artists to produce the most superb work, like Gaudi's La Sagrada Familia and Dali's Christ of St John.

I also give Jesus a clear 22 out of 22.

I mean, RE classes in schools in Britain and the C of E have agreed to tell the story by explicitly comparing Jesus and Superman!

Hey Clive, La Sagrada Familia - absolutely fantastic. Pauline & I went all over the Modenista sites coupla yrs ago. Do you know that LSF is being completed by an architect in Melbourne (Monash Uni). Sends designs in via internet and 3D models via High-tech molding gear similar. Highly mathmatical & complex.

Incidently, semi-apology for last re Dali thread. Meant every word, but Dali great as sed and I can see where your coming from. In fact, every time I look up something on those arcane matters, bloody alchemy pops out at me. Talk about spotting a word you have only just seen....

RE Jesus/Superman? I'm intrigued. Please, elucidate!

youngalexander · 02-09-2006, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

The OP is "Can we give a definitive score to Jesus based on Raglan's own criteria". But perhaps I should have read more on how Raglan came up with his other scores before starting this thread.

Ah, well GDon, you know how these things get out of hand. I was almost willing to give it up, untill baby Josh stuck his bib in.

Clivedurdle · 02-09-2006, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Superman Called on to Help in the Classroom

After three decades battling to save the Earth from invaders, Superman has a new mission. This time he must brighten up religious education as a modern-day model of Jesus Christ. RE teachers are being urged to make use of the fictional hero to give children an insight into morality and religious thinking. Research has shown that the use of films, including Star Wars, Saving Private Ryan and The Matrix, increases pupils' motivation and helps them to a better understanding of abstract concepts, says Helen Cook, of Sheffield Hallam University. "Teenagers visit the cinema and see films on television and DVDs so it's hardly surprising that their assessments of what is heroic and what is evil, possible or impossible, are partly based on what they watch," says Miss Cook, the head of post-graduate teacher training in RE. She sees many parallels between Superman and Jesus: Miss Cook, a former RE teacher in Lincolnshire, says children who were not interested before become enthusiastic once they are given a point of reference. "Children aren't brought up to go to Sunday School any more and find it difficult to think about abstract concepts such as God and pre-destination and films give them an insight," she says. (Telegraph)

:: Saturday 4th February 2006

http://www.ncpta.org.uk/ncpta/media.php

and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...154912,00.html

(2001)

Clivedurdle · 02-09-2006, 08:13 AM

We should definitely agree with these christians that Jesus is a full blown superhero, just like Superman and Flash Gordon!

Clivedurdle · 02-09-2006, 12:09 PM

Is it possible that "Jesus" was manufactured or invented by an early form of the Disney Corporation, and a series of models - spiritual, human, child, etc have been produced, much like variations on Action Man or Barbie?

We have added to the models - hippie, Mel Gibson type...

Dis someone or a group decide "let's build us a superhero and make it the best one going."

jjramsey · 02-09-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngalexander

10. There are those, who upon reading of Jesus' return to the land of his birth from Egypt might assume otherwise, but even if he was subsequently crowned “King of the Jews�? twas all mockery and thus not substantial.

11. Quite right. Not a king, giant, dragon or wild beast in site. Unless of course we count those pigs, the odd demon or two and the Great Beast Himself (Satan), but definitely not the poor benighted fig tree.

12. Nope, no princess (or predecessor). Mind you, we have to entirely discount Catholicism. The Bride of Christ and all that. Come to think of it, she (Mary) being his old mum, was the daughter of a predecessor. Perish the thort, it’s incest in any case. We could never contemplate that while happily munching on Jesus body washed down with a glug of his blood.

14. By golly we’ve got them here. Who would equate his ministry with a ‘reign’? Certainly not the assembled masses being royally fed and entertained and crying ‘hosannah’ as he emulated David the kingthingy.

15. Spot on. He came to uphold the Law (not a jot or tittle changed). Certainly not to prescribe it. Teachings, what of them? Surely they were not to be taken seriously! A new covenant, away with it.

16. Lose favor with his subjects? I should say not. Paid Roman stooges I call them, shouting for Barabbas like that. What if his disciples did slope off at the crisis and Peter deny him – it’s all probably allegory in any case.

17. I denied myself the pleasure of seeing Gibson’s “Passion of Christ�?, too much gore for my taste. I’m sure that he made most of it up anyway. All that whip lashing and such as the poor bugger drags his cross up to Golgotha (which probably wasn’t very high either).

18. As for the crucifixion, what could be more common in those times? There was that business about the stone, and the angels or was it a young man? Then there were the women, how many was it? No matter, we shall come to that by-and-by.

No question of it. A considerable stretch.

Glad you agree with me.

Joking aside, you actually demonstrated my point. One has to resort to metaphor or spiritual interpretations to get Jesus to fit the Raglan criteria--shades of the spiritual interpretation of Charles Taze Russell's prophecy of "final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God" in 1915. What is also interesting is that these claims only work if one accept the Christian "spin," so to speak, on the events in question. For example, if you really believe that Jesus was the King of Kings, then point 16 sort of fits, although one has to neglect that those purportedly baying "Crucify him!" didn't see themselves as Jesus' subjects, and even the disciples' relationship to Jesus was in practice more student-to-teacher than subject-to-ruler. If you don't buy that Jesus was a king, then it is just the crowd shouting for the death of a troublemaker. If one takes Raglan's criteria with some seriousness, then a reasonable conclusion is that the real story of Jesus was ignoble and it was the Christians' overlays onto that story that made it heroic.

Clivedurdle · 02-10-2006, 02:03 AM

Let's look at these alleged "ignoble" bits.

Death on a cross, why hast thou forsaken me, born in cowshed, blessed are the poor, turn the other cheek etc etc.

Is this not evidence of brilliant playwrights? A flawed hero - Achilles heel was a very common theme.

The point of heroes is that they have weaknesses, there are contrasts of dark and light, it is about the struggle with temptation and overcoming adversity. Sisyphus pushing the stone up the hill everyday is not exactly a crowd pleasing box office hit type story - Jesus rising from the dead has done better than Andrew LLoyd Weber! Jesus Christ Superstar!

Sorry, clearly manufactured story! And I have to remind everyone of

http://www.nazarenus.com/

There are probably issues about who, when and how the play was written but is it possible to doubt the passion is a play?

jjramsey · 02-10-2006, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Death on a cross, why hast thou forsaken me, born in cowshed, blessed are the poor, turn the other cheek etc etc.

Is this not evidence of brilliant playwrights?

Brilliant modern playwrights, perhaps. However, while the pagans certainly had ideas of noble failure, it is clear that Jesus' death by crucifixion was considered shameful, not honorable. Origin quotes Celsus as saying, "He next charges the Christians with being 'guilty of sophistical reasoning, in saying that the Son of God is the Logos Himself.' And he thinks that he strengthens the accusation, because 'when we declare the Logos to be the Son of God, we do not present to view a pure and holy Logos, but a most degraded man, who was punished by scourging and crucifixion.'" (source)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Sorry, clearly manufactured story! And I have to remind everyone of

http://www.nazarenus.com/

I'm sorry, but you've fallen for a crackpot theory. That it is elaborately reconstructed speculation presented as fact does not make it any less speculative.

Amaleq13 · 02-10-2006, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

However, while the pagans certainly had ideas of noble failure, it is clear that Jesus' death by crucifixion was considered shameful, not honorable.

It would have been considered shameful by outsiders but Paul (and, presumably, early Christianity in general) certainly didn't consider it shameful. It was considered evidence of the ultimate nature of the willingness of the Son to become a sacrifice for all.

jjramsey · 02-10-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

It would have been considered shameful by outsiders but Paul (and, presumably, early Christianity in general) certainly didn't consider it shameful.

Which goes to what I said before about Jesus' fit to some of the Raglan criteria depends on whether one accepts the meaning superposed by Christians on the events in Jesus' life. If one doesn't buy Paul's take on them, then Jesus was just a troublemaker who got an execution that was meant to demean and dishonor troublemakers.

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02-09-2006, 08:13 AM	#24
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	We should definitely agree with these christians that Jesus is a full blown superhero, just like Superman and Flash Gordon!

02-09-2006, 12:09 PM	#25
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is it possible that "Jesus" was manufactured or invented by an early form of the Disney Corporation, and a series of models - spiritual, human, child, etc have been produced, much like variations on Action Man or Barbie? We have added to the models - hippie, Mel Gibson type... Dis someone or a group decide "let's build us a superhero and make it the best one going."

02-10-2006, 02:03 AM	#27
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Let's look at these alleged "ignoble" bits. Death on a cross, why hast thou forsaken me, born in cowshed, blessed are the poor, turn the other cheek etc etc. Is this not evidence of brilliant playwrights? A flawed hero - Achilles heel was a very common theme. The point of heroes is that they have weaknesses, there are contrasts of dark and light, it is about the struggle with temptation and overcoming adversity. Sisyphus pushing the stone up the hill everyday is not exactly a crowd pleasing box office hit type story - Jesus rising from the dead has done better than Andrew LLoyd Weber! Jesus Christ Superstar! Sorry, clearly manufactured story! And I have to remind everyone of http://www.nazarenus.com/ There are probably issues about who, when and how the play was written but is it possible to doubt the passion is a play?

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