Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave31 · 07-05-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

July 6, 2008

"JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

“Some Christians will find it shocking — a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology — while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,” Mr. Boyarin said.

Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/wo...t/06stone.html

This is very interesting ... please enjoy reading the entire article.

vid · 07-05-2008, 03:20 PM

If this turns out real and reliable, it would be a very big hit for "traditional" christianity... thanks for posting.

Minimalist · 07-05-2008, 03:21 PM

I can't wait for them to pronounce it both "prophecy" and "forgery" in the same breath.

This should provide much in the way of entertainment.

andrewcriddle · 07-05-2008, 03:27 PM

There has been previous discussion of this here Gabriel Revelation / Prophecy of Gabriel (with links to earlier discussions).

The central problem is that it seems to involve a scholar (Knohl) interpreting some extremely fragmentary lines in terms of his previously held controversial ideas.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 07-05-2008, 03:29 PM

It ought to be interesting, if genuine. I don't quite understand what some posters are insinuating, or why a messianic prophecy which might anticipate the life of Christ should be some kind of unspecified problem; specifics, I suggest.

But of course 'sensational' archaeological inscriptions have been forged ever since the renaissance first created a market for them. So we should be wary.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-05-2008, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It ought to be interesting, if genuine. I don't quite understand what some posters are insinuating, or why a messianic prophecy which might anticipate the life of Christ should be some kind of unspecified problem; specifics, I suggest.

Because the "Messiah" in question is not Jesus but an earlier presumptive Messiah named Simon (if the interpetration is as advertised).

PhilosopherJay · 07-05-2008, 04:40 PM

Hi All,

Yes, the article is very interesting to me, especially this:

Quote:

In Mr. Knohl’s interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone’s passages were probably Simon’s followers, Mr. Knohl contends.

I proposed in my book and some posts several years ago that the crucified man was probably named Simon. It seemed to me that the name "Simon" had been displaced from the center of the original crucifixion story and placed around the edges, almost as clues to the original story buried underneath countless revisions.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Quote:

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

July 6, 2008

"JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

“Some Christians will find it shocking — a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology — while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,” Mr. Boyarin said.

Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/wo...t/06stone.html

This is very interesting ... please enjoy reading the entire article.

joedad · 07-05-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

Yes, the article is very interesting to me, especially this:

Quote:

In Mr. Knohl’s interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone’s passages were probably Simon’s followers, Mr. Knohl contends.

I proposed in my book and some posts several years ago that the crucified man was probably named Simon. It seemed to me that the name "Simon" had been displaced from the center of the original crucifixion story and placed around the edges, almost as clues to the original story buried underneath countless revisions.

Well, if this stone tablet doesn’t get debunked, we can dub your observation Messianic drift - like continental Drift.

I’m curious, how did you come to your observation?

storytime · 07-05-2008, 09:17 PM

More fractured fairytales seem applicable.

SLD · 07-05-2008, 10:46 PM

Simon Magus?

I wonder if there is a relationship. The Simon Magus is later reviled as a false and misleading prophet.

Maybe it is just coincidence.

SLD

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07-05-2008, 03:20 PM	#2
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	If this turns out real and reliable, it would be a very big hit for "traditional" christianity... thanks for posting.

07-05-2008, 03:21 PM	#3
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	I can't wait for them to pronounce it both "prophecy" and "forgery" in the same breath. This should provide much in the way of entertainment.

07-05-2008, 03:27 PM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	There has been previous discussion of this here Gabriel Revelation / Prophecy of Gabriel (with links to earlier discussions). The central problem is that it seems to involve a scholar (Knohl) interpreting some extremely fragmentary lines in terms of his previously held controversial ideas. Andrew Criddle

07-05-2008, 03:29 PM	#5
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	It ought to be interesting, if genuine. I don't quite understand what some posters are insinuating, or why a messianic prophecy which might anticipate the life of Christ should be some kind of unspecified problem; specifics, I suggest. But of course 'sensational' archaeological inscriptions have been forged ever since the renaissance first created a market for them. So we should be wary.

07-05-2008, 09:17 PM	#9
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	More fractured fairytales seem applicable.

07-05-2008, 10:46 PM	#10
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Simon Magus? I wonder if there is a relationship. The Simon Magus is later reviled as a false and misleading prophet. Maybe it is just coincidence. SLD

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