Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 06-10-2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All, ...

Does anybody else have an opinion on this issue?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

...

Your patience with aa5874 is notable.

It seems pretty clear to me that most Christians throughout most of history, including the present, believe(d) in evil spirits, so I don't see the problem. Justin M. did not believe that the Greek gods were gods, but he did believe in their existence as evil demons. He rejected the Greek myths because of their defective moral philosophy, not for their lack of historical truth, which would have been irrelevant.

I should probably split this thread.

But, you have WOEFULLY contradicted yourself.

A belief in evil spirits has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual existence or actual history of Agamemnon, Helen, Chryseis, Briseis, the son of Thetis, Pelides Hector, Polyxena, Apollo, Ithacan Ulysses, Ajax, son of Telamon, Chronos, the son of Ouranos, Jupiter, Neptune, Pluto, Proserpine, Ceres, Melanippe, Antiope, Danae, Europa, Leda, Semele Ganymede, Saturn, Daphne, Hyacinthus, Minerva, Bacchus, Venus, Hercules, Achelous, Busiris, Nessus, Vulcan, Mars, Atreus, Thyestes, Pelops, Danaus, Procne, Athens, OEdipus, and Laius.

All those Greek Gods are MYTHS fabricated by the POETS including Homer and Hesiod.

People in antiquity believed evil spirits or demons were the cause of EPILEPSY and other incurable diseases or that evil spirits or demons could somehow ENTER into people and make them behave unnaturally.

There is no historical source where Christians believed that there were ACTUAL HISTORICAL demons called Agamemnon, Helen, Chryseis, Briseis, the son of Thetis, Pelides Hector, Polyxena, Apollo, Ithacan Ulysses, Ajax, son of Telamon, Chronos, the son of Ouranos, Jupiter, Neptune, Pluto, Proserpine, Ceres, Melanippe, Antiope, Danae, Europa, Leda, Semele Ganymede, Saturn, Daphne, Hyacinthus, Minerva, Bacchus, Venus, Hercules, Achelous, Busiris, Nessus, Vulcan, Mars, Atreus, Thyestes, Pelops, Danaus, Procne, Athens, OEdipus, and Laius.

Demons and Evil spirits were NAMELESS spirit-like entities in the supernatural mythical world.

GakuseiDon · 06-10-2010, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You claimed Justin Martyr believed in the Greek Gods and I pointed out that Justin stated he had separated himself from the customs of the Greeks and that the PLURALITY of Gods was false and like a DISEASE to MANKIND.

aa, you completely ignore PhilosopherJay's perfectly valid point that Justin believed in the Greek gods, only Justin considered them to be evil daimones. That belief appears to have been universal amongst Christians in the Second Century CE.

GakuseiDon · 06-10-2010, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Demons and Evil spirits were NAMELESS spirit-like entities in the supernatural mythical world.

What "supernatural mythical world"? Demons were thought to live in the air and around statues, and evil spirits were thought to haunt mountains and cemeteries. So what "supernatural mythical world" are you talking about?

And they were not necessarily nameless. For the pagans, some daemons where thought to be intermediaries between the true gods above the firmament and humans. Thus a daemon might pop up and delivery a message on behalf of Zeus, declaring that it was Zeus himself. That's why the Christians of the time could write to the Roman Emperor and declare that the daemons were liars: in a sense, the Romans had to admit the Christians were right.

aa5874 · 06-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You claimed Justin Martyr believed in the Greek Gods and I pointed out that Justin stated he had separated himself from the customs of the Greeks and that the PLURALITY of Gods was false and like a DISEASE to MANKIND.

aa, you completely ignore PhilosopherJay's perfectly valid point that Justin believed in the Greek gods, only Justin considered them to be evil daimones. That belief appears to have been universal amongst Christians in the Second Century CE.

But, Justin Martyr did NOT believe in Greek Gods.

You have ignored what Justin wrote.

A God is NOT a demon.

Philosopher Jay FALSELY claimed Justin believed that the Greek Gods were TEMPORAL and demons.

Justin Matyr called them COUNTERFEITS. A counterfeit is NOT real.

Well please tell me what is a COUNTERFEIT demon.

Look at Dialogue with Trypho LXIX

Quote:

"Be well assured, then, Trypho," I continued, "that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks..

Please tell me which Counterfeits that Justin Martyr did believe?

What is an historical COUNTERFEIT demon?

Now look at the FALLACIES of Philosopher Jay. At one time, he says, the Greek Gods were made from the DEMIURGE or WATER.

At another time, Philosopher Jay says the Greek Gods are Demons.

Again, another time he changes and says the Greek gods are TEMPORAL not eternal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosopher Jay

Justin is trying to make the point that the real god is eternally existing and never made, while the Greek and Roman gods were made from the Demiurge (Plato) or water (Homer). Being generated they are not eternal and therefore not real gods, but false gods.

Once again, because Justin does not believe that the Greek and Roman gods are real (i.e. eternally existing) Gods does not mean he does not believe in their temporal existence. For him the Greek and Roman gods were created and will perish. That makes them not-Gods. It does not make them fiction....

What FALLACIES!

Please tell me what is the actual history of COUNTERFEIT demons?

Please tell me what is the actual history of COUNTERFEIT Evil Spirits?

Please tell me what did Justin say was the TRUE history of the COUNTERFEITS?

PhilosopherJay · 06-10-2010, 02:01 PM

Hi Gakuseidon,

A good distinction, thanks.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

The Greeks also acknowledged that their stories about the gods could be inaccurate

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

I admit that taking certain quotes out of context can give the impression that Justin did not believe in the Greek Gods as demons. Put in context, it is clear that he did believe that Greek Gods were demons.

"Quote Mining," taking a line here and there out of context to give a false impression that a writer held this or that opinion is not a game I care to play. I prefer to look at the totality of a writer's work and the totality of works related to a writer in order to understand a writer.

Does anybody else have an opinion on this issue?

As much as I really, REALLY hate to side with aa, he does have a point. Earlier in this thread, you wrote:

Quote:

We distinguish between history and mythology. Justin Martyr did not. For him all mythology was history, whether Jewish or Greek mythology. For him, Hercules, Aesclepius or Mitra are not made up stories, they are deeds done by demons in order to confuse people.

I don't think that is strictly true. For Justin, the poets wrote stories about the gods. Some of those stories portrayed the gods behaving both benevolently and atrociously. For Justin, the demons inspired these stories to deceive and lead astray; nonetheless, the atrocious acts of those gods in those stories ironically revealed the demons' true nature. From his First Apology:

...before He [Christ] became a man among men, some, influenced by the demons before mentioned, related beforehand, through the instrumentality of the poets, those circumstances as having really happened, which, having fictitiously devised, they narrated, in the same manner as they have caused to be fabricated the scandalous reports against us of infamous and impious actions

So, these are just stories "fictitiously devised" narrated by the poets, according to Justin. However, I do agree with you that Justin thought that some of the myths were a reflection of actual activities of demons and demi-gods in the past.

aa5874 · 06-10-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You claimed Justin Martyr believed in the Greek Gods and I pointed out that Justin stated he had separated himself from the customs of the Greeks and that the PLURALITY of Gods was false and like a DISEASE to MANKIND.

aa, you completely ignore PhilosopherJay's perfectly valid point that Justin believed in the Greek gods, only Justin considered them to be evil daimones. That belief appears to have been universal amongst Christians in the Second Century CE.

Justin did not even use the word "daimones" in reference to the Greek Gods.

PhilosopherJay · 06-10-2010, 06:47 PM

Hi aa5874,

Let me try once again to answer some of your objections.

I found a couple of other recent translations of the passage containing the word "counterfeit" online. They are modernized translations by Kevin P. Edgecomb and Thomas Halton of the 1870 translation by Thomas Falls.

http://www.bombaxo.com/trypho.html

Quote:

"You may rest assured, Trypho," I went on, "that my knowledge of the Scriptures and my faith in them have been well confirmed by the things which he who is called the Devil counterfeited in the fictions circulated among the Greeks (just as he accomplished them through the Egyptian magicians and the false prophets in the days of Elias).

http://books.google.com/books?id=WBX...page&q&f=false

Quote:

Rest assured, Trypho, I went on, “that my knowledge of the scriptures and my faith in them have been well confirmed by the things which he who is called the devil counterfeited in the fictions circulated among the Greeks (just as he accomplished them through the Egyptian magicians and the false prophets in the days of Elijah.

In these cases we are dealing with the verb "counterfeited." The subject is clearly "the devil." The object of the verb can only be "the things" in the "fictions circulated among the Greeks."

The reference to the Egyptian magicians (exodus 7:11) and 1 Kings 18:22
are to stories in which the non-Jews failed in their imitation of Jewish prophets. The Egyptian magicians produce two snakes, but Moses' snake eats them and 450 prophets of Baal are unable to start a fire at a shrine to Baal, but Yahweh does start a fire in response to the Elijah's command and the priests are killed.

Certainly Justin believed that the Egyptian magicians were real/existed and the 450 prophets of Baal were real/existed and the things they did were real. At the same time they were fake in that they could not do what the real God did.

Justin then goes on to talk about several mystery religions, Bacchus, Hercules, Asclepias, Mitras and Perseus (Chapters 69-70). He proposes that the devil, knowing the Hebrew prophecies about the coming of the Christ, was trying to fool people by spreading stories that make it appear that these mystery Gods were the Christ foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Justin does not say that any of these Mystery Gods do not exist, he merely suggests that the stories where they seem to be fulfilling the Hebrew Scriptures about the Christ come from the devil.

It is easy to see that this "diabolical mimicry" arguement is a counterargument. The Jews have suggested that the Christians have created their Christ by taking bits and pieces of the Mystery religions and putting them together (ch. 67.2). Justin is saying that the similarities in these stories have been deliberately caused by the devil, who, knowing the prophecies of the true Christ, made up the stories to fool people.

Thus the use of the word "counterfeit" or "counterfeited" refers to the specific stories about the Mystery Gods when they are similar to the stories of Jesus. These stories are counterfeited by devil.

In regards to Justin's opinion on the temporality of the Greco-Roiman Gods/demons, we should recognize that the Greeks and Romans had a variety of opinions on the nature of the Gods.

Plato (and remember Justin is a Platonist) felt that the Gods were real but allegorical. It was the immoral stories of the poets that were false and should be banned.

Euhemerus felt that they were real living people who had been men, but people told wild tales about them.

Epicurus believed the stories about the Gods were fairy tales designed to scare people, but the Gods themselves existed in the interstices between worlds.

Some stoics believed the stories were allegorical tales in which the Gods represented natural forces like water. Other stoics believed they were allegorical tales representing moral forces in the universe.

Justin talks about the Gods/demons repeatedly in Trypho, but in no case suggests they are anything less than real. All of the following verses make no sense on the supposition that the Gods/demons are merely fictions of the devil.

chapter 7

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[the Jewish prophets] They also are worthy of belief because of the miracles which they performed, for they exalted God, the Father and Creator of all things, and made known Christ, This the false prophets [Greco-Roman priests], who are filled with an erring and unclean spirit, have never done nor even do now, but they undertake to perform certain wonders to astound men and they glorify the demons and spirits of error.

chapter 30

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it is clear to all that His Father bestowed upon Him such a great power that even the demons are subject both to His name and to His pre-ordained manner of suffering.

chapter 49

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You can see, therefore, that the hidden power of God was in the crucified Christ, before whom the demons and shortly all the powers and authorities of the earth tremble."

chapter 73

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the Crucified One, who (as the Holy Spirit testifies in the same Psalm) was freed from death by His resurrection, and thus showed that He is not like gods of the Gentiles, for they are but the idols of demons.

chapter 83

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as David testifies: 'The gods of the Gentiles are demons'

chapter 85

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Every demon is vanquished and subdued when exorcised in the name of this true Son of God,

chapter 91

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For, men of all nations have been pushed by the horns, that is, goaded to compunction, by means of this mystery [of the cross], and have abandoned their vain idols and demons to turn to the worship of God.

chapter 131

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For we, who have been called to God by the mystery of the despised and dishonorable cross (for such faith, obedience, and piety we have been punished, even with the death penalty, by the demons and by the host of the Devil,

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God makes it clear that by the Crucified Jesus (of whom even those signs were predictions of what would happen to Him) the demons were to be destroyed, and to shudder at His name;

In all these cases, if Justin does not believe the Gods/Demons are real, he would be talking nonsense.

In the First Apology, he is quite explicit about their existence:

chapter 5

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you do not examine the charges made against us; but, yielding to unreasoning passion, and to the instigation of evil demons, you punish us without consideration or judgment. For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself.

Note: "They called them Gods"

chapter 5

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And when Socrates endeavoured, by true reason and examination, to bring these things to light, and deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, by means of men who rejoiced in iniquity, compassed his death, as an atheist and a profane person..we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons,

chapter 9

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And neither do we honour with many sacrifices and garlands of flowers such deities as men have formed and set in shrines and called gods; since we see that these are soulless and dead, and have not the form of God (for we do not consider that God has such a form as some say that they imitate to His honour), but have the names and forms of those wicked demons which have appeared.

chapter 10

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For the restraint which human laws could not effect, the Word, inasmuch as He is divine, would have effected, had not the wicked demons, taking as their ally the lust of wickedness which is in every man, and which draws variously to all manner of vice, scattered many false and profane accusations, none of which attach to us.

chapter 14

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For we forewarn you to be on your guard, lest those demons whom we have been accusing should deceive you, and quite diver you from reading and understanding what we say. For they strive to hold you their slaves and servants; and sometimes by appearances in dreams, and sometimes by magical impositions, they subdue all who make no strong opposing effort for their own salvation. And thus do we also, since our persuasion by the Word, stand aloof from them (i.e., the demons),

chapter 23

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before He became a man among men, some, influenced by the demons before mentioned, related beforehand, through the instrumentality of the poets, those circumstances as having really happened, which, having fictitiously devised, they narrated, in the same manner as they have caused to be fabricated the scandalous reports against us of infamous and impious actions,

Note: It was the demons who used the poets and fictitiously devised reports against Christians

chapter 44

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But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race.

chapter 62

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And the devils, indeed, having heard this washing published by the prophet, instigated those who enter their temples, and are about to approach them with libations and burnt-offerings, also to sprinkle themselves; and they cause them also to wash themselves entirely, as they depart [from the sacrifice], before they enter into the shrines in which their images are set. And the command, too, given by the priests to those who enter and worship in the temples, that they take off their shoes, the devils, learning what happened to the above-mentioned prophet Moses, have given in imitation of these things.

Note: In Trypho, it was the devil who heard about the prophecies of Christ and imitated them. Here, it is "the devils" (the demons/gods) who heard about the scriptures and caused diabolical imitation.

Finally, it is in the Second Apology (chapter 5) that Justin explains the origin of the Gods/Demons:

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But if this idea take possession of some one, that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not, as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this, too, I will solve. God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law— for these things also He evidently made for man— committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begot children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to god himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of these their offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

This passage suggests that Justin believed in most of the things written by the poets about the Gods/demons, and simply blamed them for attributing them to Gods.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

aa, you completely ignore PhilosopherJay's perfectly valid point that Justin believed in the Greek gods, only Justin considered them to be evil daimones. That belief appears to have been universal amongst Christians in the Second Century CE.

But, Justin Martyr did NOT believe in Greek Gods.

You have ignored what Justin wrote.

A God is NOT a demon.

Philosopher Jay FALSELY claimed Justin believed that the Greek Gods were TEMPORAL and demons.

Justin Matyr called them COUNTERFEITS. A counterfeit is NOT real.

Well please tell me what is a COUNTERFEIT demon.

Look at Dialogue with Trypho LXIX

Please tell me which Counterfeits that Justin Martyr did believe?

What is an historical COUNTERFEIT demon?

Now look at the FALLACIES of Philosopher Jay. At one time, he says, the Greek Gods were made from the DEMIURGE or WATER.

At another time, Philosopher Jay says the Greek Gods are Demons.

Again, another time he changes and says the Greek gods are TEMPORAL not eternal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosopher Jay

Justin is trying to make the point that the real god is eternally existing and never made, while the Greek and Roman gods were made from the Demiurge (Plato) or water (Homer). Being generated they are not eternal and therefore not real gods, but false gods.

Once again, because Justin does not believe that the Greek and Roman gods are real (i.e. eternally existing) Gods does not mean he does not believe in their temporal existence. For him the Greek and Roman gods were created and will perish. That makes them not-Gods. It does not make them fiction....

What FALLACIES!

Please tell me what is the actual history of COUNTERFEIT demons?

Please tell me what is the actual history of COUNTERFEIT Evil Spirits?

Please tell me what did Justin say was the TRUE history of the COUNTERFEITS?

aa5874 · 06-10-2010, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Let me try once again to answer some of your objections.

I found a couple of other recent translations of the passage containing the word "counterfeit" online. They are modernized translations by Kevin P. Edgecomb and Thomas Halton of the 1870 translation by Thomas Falls.

Well, I am using the Roberts-Donaldson translation where "those counterfeits" is found. There is no verb "counterfeited" but a noun "those counterfeits".

You want to use the verb, and I want to use the noun.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosopher Jay

....Plato (and remember Justin is a Platonist) felt that the Gods were real but allegorical. It was the immoral stories of the poets that were false and should be banned....

This is a total contradiction. You cannot have a real allergoric God.

You are just making errors after errors.

May I remind you that Justin claimed the plurality of Gods are lies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosopher Jay

Justin then goes on to talk about several mystery religions, Bacchus, Hercules, Asclepias, Mitras and Perseus (Chapters 69-70). He proposes that the devil, knowing the Hebrew prophecies about the coming of the Christ, was trying to fool people by spreading stories that make it appear that these mystery Gods were the Christ foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Devil and his demons used, influenced or ENTERED into the POETS like Homer and Hesiod to spread myths and lies about the PLURALITY of Gods based on the writings of Justin Martyr.

There was NO Devil, demon or Evil Spirit named Hector, Achilles, Agamemnon, Helen, Paris or any other Greek mythical God.

Multiple DEMONS may be believed to enter human beings and then EXORCISED to ENTER into 2000 PIGS.

Lu 8:30 -

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And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Demons it would appear have NO BODIES they are evil spirits. They can be EXORCISED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosopher Jay

Every demon is vanquished and subdued when exorcised in the name of this true Son of God..

Which Greek Gods was exorcised out of Mary Magdalene, she had SEVEN DEVILS? Or was Mary Magdalene SEVEN GODS in one?

Luke 8.2

Quote:

2and certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Mag'dalene, out of whom went seven devils....

You seem to have no basic understanding of the writings of Justin Martyr with reference to the Greek Gods and Demons.

Justin Martyr is simply claiming that the Greek POETS were possessed with DEMONS and that WITH the possession of these DEMONS the POETS manufactured MYTHS, LIES, DRIVEL and Madness of the Greek Gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosopher Jay

....Justin talks about the Gods/demons repeatedly in Trypho, but in no case suggests they are anything less than real. All of the following verses make no sense on the supposition that the Gods/demons are merely fictions of the devil.

But, again Did not Justin claim that there was ONLY one God and the plurality of Gods were LIES like a DISEASE to be eradicated?

You are blatantly mis-representing Justin Martyr.

Again supposedly Demons are evil spirits that can enter and exist human, animals, birds, even sea-creatures in multiple numbers.

John 6:70 -

Quote:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Was Judas a Greek God because Jesus called him a DEVIL?

What was the name of the DEMON in Judas?

None of these Greek Gods existed, they were myths of the POETS under the influence of demons: Agamemnon, Helen, Chryseis, Briseis, the son of Thetis, Pelides Hector, Polyxena, Apollo, Ithacan Ulysses, Ajax, son of Telamon, Chronos, the son of Ouranos, Jupiter, Neptune, Pluto, Proserpine, Ceres, Melanippe, Antiope, Danae, Europa, Leda, Semele Ganymede, Saturn, Daphne, Hyacinthus, Minerva, Bacchus, Venus, Hercules, Achelous, Busiris, Nessus, Vulcan, Mars, Atreus, Thyestes, Pelops, Danaus, Procne, Athens, OEdipus, and Laius.

The Greek Gods have NO actual history except in Greek mythology.

PhilosopherJay · 06-10-2010, 10:15 PM

Hi aa5874

From Did Socrates "Teach New Deities"?
Or: Homer's Gods, Plato's Gods*
A Public Talk by Dr. Jan Garrett

Quote:

What Does Plato Think the Gods Are Like?
But in fact, in Plato's picture of things, the Forms do not replace the gods; in his view, there are gods in addition to visible bodies, human souls, and Forms. So, what are these gods like? There are some clues to this in Plato's Republic. In book 2 Socrates examines the kinds of stories the poets traditionally told regarding the gods and finds them wanting.

He starts from the assumption that the gods are perfect beings. He then considers stories told about the gods, for example, Zeus' disguising himself as a swan and raping Leda, and constructs an argument against this story. No being willingly makes itself worse. To take on an inferior outward form is to worsen oneself. The gods do nothing unwillingly and their forms are perfect. A lower animal (indeed, even a human being) has a form inferior to that of the gods. Therefore the gods do not take on other forms. Thus, the story of Leda and the Swan alias Zeus must be false. (And the poets who tell this story are the real corrupters of the youth, not Socrates.)

Next Plato refutes Homer's story about Zeus as a liar (sending the falsely prophetic dream to Agamemnon). There are two kinds of falsehood, he says, internal and external. Internal falsehood is ignorance. Surely the gods, being perfect, are not ignorant. How about external falsehood?

External falsehood occurs when one knows the truth but makes use of falsehood. Socrates admits that this kind of falsehood (deception) is sometimes acceptable for human beings. Sometimes we have to deceive fools or madmen to prevent them from doing harm. Moreover, in warfare, it is not wrong to mislead enemies concerning one's military strength or the exact location of one's forces. Finally, sometimes we have to tell children stories that are literally false in order to make a point. An example from our history is the familiar story of the youthful George Washington and the cherry tree. The event never occurred; yet the story conveys an important lesson.

Plato's point is that humans sometimes are justified in uttering things that are not exactly true. But do the gods need to fear fools or madmen? Not at all. Can they have enemies as humans can--i.e., persons who can harm them? Not at all. Do they tell stories to children? Not at all. Thus the gods would have no reason to lie, and any poet who says they do is himself either ignorant or a liar.

From this passage we could make some educated guesses about Plato's and perhaps Socrates' positive conception of the gods: the gods are perfect beings, with perfect bodies, far more beautiful than our own; they cannot be killed--in fact, they cannot be harmed in any way. Their bodies are incorruptible. What is more, since they do not die, they need not replenish their population; thus they do not beget child gods to whom they might need to tell stories.

A brief remark later in Plato's Republic is also informative. Socrates is about to introduce a famous comparison between the Sun and his highest Form, the Good. In passing, he refers to the Sun as a "visible god." This is not a concession to the popular religion. Plato regards the Sun, the Moon, the planets and the stars as gods, though not as the only gods. Why? They are everlasting. Their bodies do not come into being and pass away. So far as the ancient Greeks knew, they had always been there. They are alive: we can believe this because they run in an intelligible course and an intelligible course is evidence for control by intelligence, which Plato attributes to divine souls in the heavenly bodies themselves. In fact, circular courses are quite proper for their everlasting life; there need be no end to circular motion. Plato never gives a knockdown proof that Zeus, Athena, and Hera exist, but he does give a proof, in the last book of the last work he composed, the Laws, that there are gods. In doing so, he appeals directly to the visible evidence of the gods in the sky. Surely there are gods; everybody can see them!
Visible and Invisible Gods
But in his view these are not the only gods. These visible gods, he thinks, were the first gods which human beings recognized. They were called gods because they run or course forever through the heavens. The Greek word for "I run" is theô; the Greek word for god is "theos." But later, when cities were founded, other gods were recognized. These are the gods we call Zeus, Athena, Hera, and so forth--the Olympians. We can call them that provided we don't believe everything about them that Homer and Hesiod and their ilk tell us. For one thing, no human being has the slightest idea of these gods' true names, i.e., what they call each other. (It's probably not Zeus, Hera, etc.) These are the gods of civilized life; that's why (says Plato) they are not recognized by most of the barbarians. These are the gods that care about human beings and are aware of whether we are good or wicked.

Like the visible sky gods, these gods are everlasting; they have incorruptible bodies; they do not come into being and pass away. Their minds are in complete control of their bodies. Note the difference from human beings. Our bodies resist the control of our minds, not least when they lead us into temptation.

Now, there are two key differences between this group of gods and the visible sky gods: First, these gods are essentially invisible, but they can reveal themselves to us when they wish. Secondly, these gods care about whether human beings are good or not. Both kinds of god provide us with benefits: The sun's benefits are obvious. The planets and stars help us tell the time of night or season of the year and enable navigators to find their ways on the seas. But the invisible gods, the ones we call Zeus, Hera, etc. care about the well-being of societies and individuals.

Please note, in none of the passages and surrounding areas where I quoted Justin speaking of demons did he quote any passages from the gospels, rather he was explicitly talking about Greek and Roman beliefs about the Gods.

The issue is not whether the Greek Gods existed, but what Justin believed abouit them.

Warmly

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Let me try once again to answer some of your objections.

I found a couple of other recent translations of the passage containing the word "counterfeit" online. They are modernized translations by Kevin P. Edgecomb and Thomas Halton of the 1870 translation by Thomas Falls.

Well, I am using the Roberts-Donaldson translation where "those counterfeits" is found. There is no verb "counterfeited" but a noun "those counterfeits".

You want to use the verb, and I want to use the noun.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

This is a total contradiction. You cannot have a real allergoric God.

You are just making errors after errors.

May I remind you that Justin claimed the plurality of Gods are lies.

The Devil and his demons used, influenced or ENTERED into the POETS like Homer and Hesiod to spread myths and lies about the PLURALITY of Gods based on the writings of Justin Martyr.

There was NO Devil, demon or Evil Spirit named Hector, Achilles, Agamemnon, Helen, Paris or any other Greek mythical God.

Multiple DEMONS may be believed to enter human beings and then EXORCISED to ENTER into 2000 PIGS.

Lu 8:30 -

Demons it would appear have NO BODIES they are evil spirits. They can be EXORCISED.

Which Greek Gods was exorcised out of Mary Magdalene, she had SEVEN DEVILS? Or was Mary Magdalene SEVEN GODS in one?

Luke 8.2

You seem to have no basic understanding of the writings of Justin Martyr with reference to the Greek Gods and Demons.

Justin Martyr is simply claiming that the Greek POETS were possessed with DEMONS and that WITH the possession of these DEMONS the POETS manufactured MYTHS, LIES, DRIVEL and Madness of the Greek Gods.

But, again Did not Justin claim that there was ONLY one God and the plurality of Gods were LIES like a DISEASE to be eradicated?

You are blatantly mis-representing Justin Martyr.

Again supposedly Demons are evil spirits that can enter and exist human, animals, birds, even sea-creatures in multiple numbers.

John 6:70 -

Quote:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Was Judas a Greek God because Jesus called him a DEVIL?

What was the name of the DEMON in Judas?

None of these Greek Gods existed, they were myths of the POETS under the influence of demons: Agamemnon, Helen, Chryseis, Briseis, the son of Thetis, Pelides Hector, Polyxena, Apollo, Ithacan Ulysses, Ajax, son of Telamon, Chronos, the son of Ouranos, Jupiter, Neptune, Pluto, Proserpine, Ceres, Melanippe, Antiope, Danae, Europa, Leda, Semele Ganymede, Saturn, Daphne, Hyacinthus, Minerva, Bacchus, Venus, Hercules, Achelous, Busiris, Nessus, Vulcan, Mars, Atreus, Thyestes, Pelops, Danaus, Procne, Athens, OEdipus, and Laius.

The Greek Gods have NO actual history except in Greek mythology.

aa5874 · 06-10-2010, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

The issue is not whether the Greek Gods existed, but what Justin believed abouit them.

But, I have ALREADY shown you that Justin BELIEVED there was ONLY ONE GOD and that MULTIPLE GODS were LIES of the Devil.

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" XXI

Quote:

This first false fancy, therefore, concerning gods, had its origin with the father of lies.

God, therefore, knowing that the false opinion about the plurality of gods was burdening the soul of man like some disease, and wishing to remove and eradicate it, appeared first to Moses, and said to him, "I am He who is."....

So based on Justin Martyr:

1. The plurality of God had its origin with the father of lies.

2. The Plurality of Gods was a FALSE opinion.

3. The plurality of Gods was burdening the soul of man like a disease.

4. The false opinion of the plurality of Gods is to be removed and eradicated.

5. There was ONLY one GOD. "I am HE who is".

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