Doug Shaver

Then how did a Jewish sect get it into their heads, less than a generation after his alleged death, that he was either a god or something very like a god?

Roger Pearse

Because he was, and they were in a position to know and/or find out. I'm not sure why you suppose that the same was true of everyone in the ancient world, tho.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Amaleq13

Yes, much in the same way that Charlie Manson, David Koresh, or Jim Jones were "recognized" by their devout followers as being more than the mere human they appeared. It just took the death of their leader for them to obtain that recognition.

Toto

How do you know that there was a "Qumran community?" Or that it had a leader? (See this thread).

Jayhawker Soule

Good point. Thanks

aa5874

No, its your argument that's fraudulent.

If we have to write HISTORY from what People Do Say , THEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHY THERE IS NO HISTORY OF JESUS, NO-ONE DID SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HIM.

Doug Shaver

Oh. OK.

If by "suppose" you mean "assume," I'm actually trying very hard not to assume any more than I must.

I agree that if Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, then he had some disciples. I also agree that if Jesus had been a god and had wanted his disciples to know it, then they would have known it.

But, I don't think I must assume either that he was real or that he was a god if he was real.

Now, I don't assume, but I infer from the earliest Christian documents, that the first Christians we know about were a Jewish sect that existed in Jerusalem during a few decades prior to the First Roman-Jewish War. Can you tell me what the members, or some of the members, of that sect saw Jesus do, or heard him say, that convinced them that he was a god? And can you tell me how we know that those people saw him do it or heard him say it?

Chris Weimer

Except the Gospels, and Paul, and what Paul alludes to about the Pillars, and the Gnostic Gospels, and the early fathers, and what the early fathers said that the gnostic fathers said, and non-canonical orthodox gospels, and Josephus, and Tacitus...

No one.

Huon

I think (modestly, and I can be contradicted) that the only people who could speak of a historical Jesus were "James the brother of the Lord" and his partisans. This JEWISH group could easily believe that their leader Jesus was another prophet, inspired by God. Saying that Jesus was the son of God, and another aspect of God, was a very new idea to Jews of that epoch. This idea was the origin of a split between James (who lost hist leadership if he was not really the brother of the previous leader) and Paul (who had a better understanding of the real nature of the Christ, and then, could claim the leadership of the group). And possibly, Simon-Peter-Cephas did not like too much James...

Roger Pearse

I'm afraid that you've derailed the discussion in a direction in which I have no interest. This is about the list of authors who 'must' write about Jesus, not about evidences for Christianity, and still less for evidences to refute the Jesus Myth nonsense.

All the best,

Roger Pearse