Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 07:43 PM

And we still have the central difficulty of why the Jews wanted Jesus dead. Claiming to be the Messiah is not a capital offense.

sharon45 · 05-11-2012, 08:07 PM

If he was the Messiah, he would not have been killed.

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 08:24 PM

The Messiah can die just the Jews wouldnt have the Romans execute someone for claiming to be the messiah

rlogan · 05-11-2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

doesn't all of the early evidence we have about what the early Jewish Christian groups thought about Jesus show that they regarded him to have been a Jewish man

I noticed you didn't offer any evidence for "early Jewish Christian groups."

outhouse · 05-11-2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

jesus in judaism failed early on while the real apostles were still alive.

if paul had not spread the movement through the roman empire for gentiles, the sect woul dhave died off quickly.

All you need to do is show that there was a Jesus in Judaism before Paul. Paul doesn't give you one iota of help there. You don't know exactly what anyone believed before Paul had his revelation about Jesus. What sort of messianists were those who Paul met in Jerusalem? If you can answer this without retrojecting from sources of unknowable dating, then you might have something to say. As is, you seem to be passing on religious status quo with no justification.

there is a reason its status quo.

paul did not invent the movement. Nor the foundation of mythology.

spin · 05-12-2012, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

jesus in judaism failed early on while the real apostles were still alive.

if paul had not spread the movement through the roman empire for gentiles, the sect woul dhave died off quickly.

All you need to do is show that there was a Jesus in Judaism before Paul. Paul doesn't give you one iota of help there. You don't know exactly what anyone believed before Paul had his revelation about Jesus. What sort of messianists were those who Paul met in Jerusalem? If you can answer this without retrojecting from sources of unknowable dating, then you might have something to say. As is, you seem to be passing on religious status quo with no justification.

there is a reason its status quo.

Ummm, and that is....? (Asked, hanging with bated breath.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

paul did not invent the movement. Nor the foundation of mythology.

And these assertions are based on....? Does it matter? They're just schoolyard responses indicating nothing more meaningful to say. outhouse, you have no evidence to indicate Jesus preceded Paul. Paul specifically states he got his gospel not from other people but from revelation (Gal 1:11-12).

Do we have to give up expecting any content from you? Nothing comes of nothing. Speak again.

Solo · 05-12-2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Or as G.K. Chesterton observed

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried. As G.K. Chesterton observed.

We may now accept that James was not in charge of anyone at all.

Not exactly clear how the statement about James with the one by G.K.C., but hey, would this be the first I have seen someone quoted at random ? :huh:

Incidentally, for all his smart love of orthodoxy Gerald was a notorious glutton (which likely informed his view that Christianity was 'difficult') and a pathetic Jew-baiter.

Best,
Jiri

sotto voce · 05-12-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

for all his smart love of orthodoxy

If papism is orthodoxy, one dries clothes in water. If papism is orthodoxy, the sun comes out at night.

Quote:

Gerald was a notorious glutton (which likely informed his view that Christianity was 'difficult') and a pathetic Jew-baiter.

Gilbert, not Gerald. It would be to insult his intelligence to suppose that his view was based on carnal appetite— which factor has led many to allege that Christianity is indulgent, not difficult. American 'Christianity' is founded on that illusion, after all. Many present US 'Christians' would make GKC look under-nourished!

But gluttony and antisemitism are two of the oldest Catholic Traditions, so it would figure if GKC had espoused Romanism for those reasons. Though, despite that weakness and wickedness (and wickedness it was) he was more intelligent than to be antisemitic. He was an eccentric, who spoke his mind, even though it was apparently self-contradictory.

And of course he was far too intelligent to suppose that RCism actually was Christian. That story was for the working class, not for the likes of him. Anyone who really wants to show that Romanism is Christian has to blot out 1700 years of genuine contradiction, historical indictment, before even opening a Bible. Supporting the RCC is morally not so far from denying the Holocaust. And the two are connected, of course.

outhouse · 05-12-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

there is a reason its status quo.

Ummm, and that is....? (Asked, hanging with bated breath.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

paul did not invent the movement. Nor the foundation of mythology.

And these assertions are based on....? Does it matter? They're just schoolyard responses indicating nothing more meaningful to say. outhouse, you have no evidence to indicate Jesus preceded Paul. Paul specifically states he got his gospel not from other people but from revelation (Gal 1:11-12).

Do we have to give up expecting any content from you? Nothing comes of nothing. Speak again.

typical myther garbage bud.

what do you have so meaningful to say? other then "nuh uh"

you want special pleading for every aspect of the mythology, yet refuse all evidence towards a mortal man.

oh quick! spout of in a schoolyard manner that everybody picks on those inoccent little myther's, and because they have no real following in the scholarly community they should somehow be given credibility.

like it or not there are gray areas within the legend. Focusing on the gaps of knowledge then painting wildly with a myther brush ressembles a creationist at work

the worst thing here is im a minimalist as far as given historicity to jesus and im probably 55% -45%, yet you make it sound like im a bible toting catholic

Toto · 05-12-2012, 11:36 AM

outhouse - spin is not a mythcist.

Would you like to withdraw that silly post above?

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05-11-2012, 07:43 PM	#101
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And we still have the central difficulty of why the Jews wanted Jesus dead. Claiming to be the Messiah is not a capital offense.

05-11-2012, 08:07 PM	#102
sharon45 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southwest, US Posts: 8,759	If he was the Messiah, he would not have been killed.

05-11-2012, 08:24 PM	#103
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Messiah can die just the Jews wouldnt have the Romans execute someone for claiming to be the messiah

05-12-2012, 11:36 AM	#110
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	outhouse - spin is not a mythcist. Would you like to withdraw that silly post above?

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