Toto

various posts split off here

sorompio

I know it is an old thread, but I happened to stumble today upon the exact Gibbon paragraph. It is in the chapter XVI, Part VIII, of his monumental "Decline And Fall of The Roman Empire":

The vague descriptions of exile and imprisonment, of pain and torture, are so easily exaggerated or softened by the pencil of an artful orator, that we are naturally induced to inquire into a fact of a more distinct and stubborn kind; the number of persons who suffered death in consequence of the edicts published by Diocletian, his associates, and his successors. The recent legendaries record whole armies and cities, which were at once swept away by the undistinguishing rage of persecution. The more ancient writers content themselves with pouring out a liberal effusion of loose and tragical invectives, without condescending to ascertain the precise number of those persons who were permitted to seal with their blood their belief of the gospel. From the history of Eusebius, it may, however, be collected, that only nine bishops were punished with death; and we are assured, by his particular enumeration of the martyrs of Palestine, that no more than ninety-two Christians were entitled to that honorable appellation. As we are unacquainted with the degree of episcopal zeal and courage which prevailed at that time, it is not in our power to draw any useful inferences from the former of these facts: but the latter may serve to justify a very important and probable conclusion. According to the distribution of Roman provinces, Palestine may be considered as the sixteenth part of the Eastern empire: and since there were some governors, who from a real or affected clemency had preserved their hands unstained with the blood of the faithful, it is reasonable to believe, that the country which had given birth to Christianity, produced at least the sixteenth part of the martyrs who suffered death within the dominions of Galerius and Maximin; the whole might consequently amount to about fifteen hundred, a number which, if it is equally divided between the ten years of the persecution, will allow an annual consumption of one hundred and fifty martyrs. Allotting the same proportion to the provinces of Italy, Africa, and perhaps Spain, where, at the end of two or three years, the rigor of the penal laws was either suspended or abolished, the multitude of Christians in the Roman empire, on whom a capital punishment was inflicted by a judicia, sentence, will be reduced to somewhat less than two thousand persons. Since it cannot be doubted that the Christians were more numerous, and their enemies more exasperated, in the time of Diocletian, than they had ever been in any former persecution, this probable and moderate computation may teach us to estimate the number of primitive saints and martyrs who sacrificed their lives for the important purpose of introducing Christianity into the world.


He explains how he reached his estimation.

RED DAVE

This is actually a very cool point, which came up recently in the thread about the resurrection. Thank you sorompio.

xthians are constantly clamoring about the martyrs and how their martyrdom somehow ratifies the reality of the the christ myth. However, as we see now, compared with modern persecutions and holocausts, this was nothing.

On such pebbles are churches built.

RED DAVE

Doug Shaver

Please cite the documentation for one of them. Just one. And please include the victim's identification.

OK, I'll settle for a quotation in which they cite some primary evidence.

Diogenes the Cynic

Six million Jews were killed in the holocaust. That proves that Jesus was not the Messiah.

sorompio

I've searching through Elaine Pagels' "The Gnostic Gospels" lately, that actually confirms many of the Gibbon accounts, but what's most interesting is her appreciation on the whole phenomenon of Christian martyrdom: But not all Christians spoke out. Many, at the moment of decision, made the opposite choice. Some considered martyrdom foolish, wasteful of human life, and so, contrary to God's will. They argued that "Christ, having died for us, was killed so we might not be killed"*. As past events become matters of religious conviction only when they serve to interpret present experience, here the interpretation of Christ's death became the focus of controversy over the practical question of martyrdom.
*(Tertullian contemptuosly cites their arguments in Scorpiace 1)

So, the subject was directly linked to the triumph of the "orthodox" vision of a flesh and blood Jesus, just history written by the winning side (and fable too)...

triffidfood

Turning the topic title around slightly ... for evidence of persecution by (or on behalf of) Christianity, see for instance “Codex Theodosianus”.

Codex Theodosianus, which was promulgated in 438 CE, represented the official legal code of the Roman Empire, and incorporated previous Imperial laws set by various Christian Emperors going back to Constantine (specifically, to 312 CE, according to Wikipedia).

This Codex, for example, stated:

[Derived from http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma...ntolerance.htm and http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/codex-theod1.html ~ emphasis added above.]

Speaks for itself really I guess.

sorompio

Absolutely, triffidfood. From martyrs to inquisitors.