wordy

Pete I voted No but my more articulated answer would be No but ...
if I had words for it. I think that some real person could have existed historically but Christ is a "spiritual" concept and doesn't exist. Christ is spiritual present if you open your heart to him.

Jesus is more like a Harry Potter figure in the Bible literature.

Did work very well for her to get the message out without having real historical person. But in an interview she did revealed that some of the persons had real persons as an inner motivator. Teachers in her School when young and such.

So the failure of communication is on you to take Jesus too literally. It is the Christ within that works today and not the "Teacher" that allegedly was living some 2000 years ago. If he existed he only works as a kind of literal template for the midrash on the old testament. Jesus of history is not needed for Christ to work spiritually at all.

Even if all is made up completely from scratch by Constantin's men it would still work. It is the commitment of the believers that makes a faith work for them. That they persist in preaching is enough to make it continue. No historical person is needed.

mountainman

Thanks for this clarification minimalist.
I can see that this is a valid POV.

I understand this point now - thanks.

Also, the question: "When do the followers
of Jesus appear in the archaeological record,
setting aside for the moment the assertions
of Eusebius". Whwn did the followers of Jesus
actually appear?

Certainly the fourth century.
But earlier? Doubtful. Very doubtful IMO.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

Hey wordy! How's the Swedish winter?

Harry Potter is good example.
Who did the advertising and PR?

I agree with the psychological observation of christians
feeling that they have "opened their heart to Eusebius",
sorry - that should be Jesus - and as a consequence some
psychological experience, which they cannot categorise,
is interpretted as "spiritually enlivened". This also equally
applied to people who are addicted to video games.


Of course. Today people feel and experience things "today".
Things identified "today" as Jesus Christ are here and now.
The name is available to be used. What relevance it has to
anything historical is immaterial to most people.

Except ancient historians.



Yes, it will and can still work today for people if they
feel the need to convince themselves to name their
religious experiences after Jesus Christ.

However I am coming from ancient history.
I am trying to examine all this biblical crap in
terms of ancient political realities, and what
ever evidence exists outside of the literature,
in the ground as inscriptions, papyri, etc.

I can understand that this is a restricted view.
Not too many people are concerned with the
integrity of ancient history as a discipline of
knowledge in its own right.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

The bible was first published by Constantine.
The attendant paradigms were characterised
by persecution, intolerance and destruction.

See Vlasis Rassias

Best wishes with the research!


Pete Brown

JohnG

Thanks Pete, I am an amatuer historian, but have maintained a strong interest for the better part of 20 years. I admit I know very little details about the supposed events that surround a character called "Jesus", but I have done some research on the origins of the new testament.

I realize Constatinius authorized the publication of the books, and I'm aware of some of the political landscape that surrounded him to do so. I am also aware of the Nicene council and the post Nicene church fathers and their contributions to the canons. It is because of this information that I don't spend a lot of time researching the bible for any other reason than to research Roman politics in the 4th century and beyond.

There is little else as far as I can see that is good material. I can find philosophy of those times by reading about Platonism, Stoicism, epicureanism...

When I say "the paradigm it introduced", I mean as a part of the Roman cultural implications. For example, the family structure, the role of women in society, mens role in society, how children are viewed, law, politics, religious structure, class structures.. . It's probably true that the fabric of that society was already woven in a pagan world, but until I do further research (or someone here can help me out with it) I have to assume Christianity played a role in the shaping of the culture that was to become western culture.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I can't take any of those stories as factual because it appears these writings were being composited and edited 350 years after the "Christ event" was to have happened, and for political reasons.

I say "no" to the poll on the grounds that an avalanche of information supporting the biblical Jesus as a myth, and none as far as I (or anyone else has found) to support the myth. He falls into the same category as Zeus, Apollo, or Churchill.

JohnG

and Pete, great link - I appreciate it - still reading...

JohnG

BTW, How accurate is the history in that Vlasis Rassias link?

It seems he may be motivated by his goal to reestablish greek polytheism, but I have read corresponding elements of that timeline in other accounts.

mountainman

I have attempted to contact Vlasis but without success
however I think that many of the citations are to be found
in the Codex Theodosianus, which is not available as an
English translation (yet) on the net. How's your Latin?

Some time back there a few attempts here in BC&H to examine
the citations one by one, but although a start was made, the
project never kept momentum.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

wordy

Pete I apology if I come through as a jerk.

Yes I agree, such is important on its own merit.
It help us get a perspective on how we humans
build culture and what factors are involved so
my reaction is more about the connection to the
historical Jesus and the Christ Jesus who is alive
now for the believers. As an atheist I am more
concerned about the Christ now then the HJ person.

So good luck doing history. Very interesting it is.

Sorry that sounded like Yoda doing the Young Pdawan thing?

History is very interesting but a difficult subject due to too
little evidence but that also allow for bold ideas to ponder.

Dorje

My position is FJ. I consider jesus to be as fictional as gandalf and harry potter, a complete figment of the imagination of some unknown ancient author.