Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 06:35 AM

Apparently the Hebrew yesh is rendered ith or yeth in Syriac and is the standard term for addressing the godhead. I did not know that:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RLt...esh%22&f=false

Quote:

In derivation, then, the terms ithutha and ithyaanswer to the Greek οὐσία. According to its formation ithya should express the idea of " being ", " existence ", according to a more concrete concept than that conveyed by ithutha. This grammatical distinction holds good (generally speaking) in practice

Quote:

Bardaisan, according to the notices of him found in the works of St Ephraim1, used ithyd and itk&tha to denote certain elemental substances which God first created and from which He then fashioned the world ; thus air, fire, water and water were ithye, or elements. In the De Fato itself Bardesaines is made to speak in one place of ithyi as synonymous with the borrowed Greek word estukse (stoicheia) : " He said to me, Not in so far as they are fixed, O Philip, will the Elements {estukse) be judged, but in so far as they have power; for Beings (ithye) when they are fashioned together are not deprived of their nature, but they lose somewhat of their own proper force by being mingled one with another, and they are subdued by the power of their Maker ; and in so far as they are subjected they will not be judged, but only in that which is their own"

In later Syriac texts it is one and the same with ousia

Quote:

Patriarch Timothy says: We Christians, our brother, believe in that Being (ithya) as one, and we know that He is... We know that along with being eternally He is also living and rational, both of these essentially and hypostatically.

http://books.google.com/books?id=U7t...ing%22&f=false

From another source http://www.insula.com.au/ahrel/bardaisan.html

Quote:

Although Bardaisan used (ithya) to denote one of the four elements and (ithutha) for the essence or “being” of that element (Bethune*Baker 1908:213), Ephrem Syrus used (ithya) for “being”, and reserved (ithutha) only for God (Drijvers, 1966:134). Ephrem therefore said the Bardaisan made the elements equal to beings like God. Ephrem also mentioned that the later Bardaisanites spoke of God sending three agencies to order the world: spirit, force and thought, but Bardaisan had only one agency, the Word of Thought (Drijvers, 1966:140*1).

And Burkitt's essay on Ephraim http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ephraim2_8_intro3.htm

Quote:

On this perhaps a few words may be said, mainly with regard to the meaning of certain Syriac terms. Ephraim may be described as a Monist and a Materialist. That is to say, he recognises only one self-existing original entity or being ()YtY) , Ithya), viz. God. The opposite to an Ithya is )dYBB (p. 219, l. 41), i.e. a thing made. What we see around us in this world are made things, things which came into being by God's will. Properties and characters were given to made things by God's will, and so, if He wills it, their properties are liable to change. An Ithya, on the other hand, does not and cannot change ; it has a 'bound nature ' ([Syriac]).

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 07:41 AM

This source identifies a related term - the Assyrian ishu (= yeshu):

http://books.google.com/books?id=h7M...0ithya&f=false

aa5874 · 01-30-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Then why does our earliest reference to him spell his name Hebion?

Well, why does Origen Contradict Tertullian? According to Origen "Ebion" is NOT the name of a man but merely means "POOR" among the Jews.

Against Celsus"

Quote:

....Here he has not observed that the Jewish converts have not deserted the law of their fathers, inasmuch as they live according to its prescriptions, receiving their very name from the poverty of the law, according to the literal acceptation of the word; for Ebion signifies “poor” among the Jews, and those Jews who have received Jesus as Christ are called by the name of Ebionites....

Apologetic sources have Contradicted Tertullian---"Ebion" means "Poor" among the Jews.

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Well, why does Origen Contradict Tertullian?

I don't know what to say about this. We have a forum here. Do any of us agree very often?

aa5874 · 01-30-2012, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Well, why does Origen Contradict Tertullian?

I don't know what to say about this. We have a forum here. Do any of us agree very often?

Well, you have NOT solved your mystery. There was NO mystery in the first place. It was ALREADY recognised and established that the author called Tertullian did NOT know what he was talking about.

Now, what can you say about this? Apologetic sources that mentioned the Ebionites Contradict Terullian.

Church History 3

Quote:

....The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ....

The Church historian, Eusebius, and Origen did NOT associate Ebion as a figure of history but as an ADJECTIVE meaning "Poor".

Well, it is NOT a mystery. The writer called Tertullian provided bogus information about "Ebion" because he did NOT really know of the Ebionites.

It must be NOTED that even up to the 5th century, it was NOT acknowledged that Tertullian wrote any texts Against Heresies.

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 09:52 AM

If the original name was ebion then it would stand that the founder of the Ebionites had the name 'beggar' or 'poor (man).' Not a very common name I would think. If the group was founded by someone named Hebion I think the likelihood is that it has something to do with Jesus the 'hidden power' given that 'those who venerated the hidden power' (= elxasites) are already connected with the hebion/ebionites.

aa5874 · 01-30-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If the original name was ebion then it would stand that the founder of the Ebionites had the name 'beggar' or 'poor (man).' Not a very common name I would think. If the group was founded by someone named Hebion I think the likelihood is that it has something to do with Jesus the 'hidden power' given that 'those who venerated the hidden power' (= elxasites) are already connected with the hebion/ebionites.

A "beggerman with "hidden power"? Please identify "hidden power"? What is the actual evidence of "hidden power"?

Your claims are indeed mysterious.

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 10:19 AM

I began this thread by demonstrating that Hab 3:4 was read by Jews for centuries as “yesh the hidden power.”. Jastrow demonstrates that hebion (= hidden) was pronounced ebion in certain dialects. Justin (transmitted by Tertullian clear took the passage as a prophesy foretelling of the Transfiguration when Jesus (=Yeshu) revealed his divine light nature.

I think yesh, the first two letters of the name Jesus, was the origin of our name Jesus. We no longer have Jewish Aramaic documents of earliest Christianity. Nevertheless we still see that the Syrian Church always referenced God (= Jesus) as ithya which ultimately derives from the Hebrew yesh.

I wonder any Syriac nomina sacra survive?

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 12:23 PM

And don't forget transforming yesh into a divine name or a term which means power or god already started in Jewish Aramaic. Its very curious that ithya or ithutha (=yesh).became the word for divinity. Look at the Nicene Creed in Syriac. It might require rethinking the development of early Christianity in Aramaic (not necessarily just the gospel)

stephan huller · 01-30-2012, 12:53 PM

The Syriac creed reads: http://books.google.com/books?id=wF1...ing%22&f=false

Quote:

In this letter to Catholicos Denha I, Bar Ebraya refers to and gives a partial text of this Synod182. This Synod was held under the Catholicos Isaac in 410. Prefaced to the canons of the Synod is a credal profession whose Syriac text comes down in two different recensions, of which the one is transmitted in Syrian Orthodox sources4, while the other is to be found in the manuscripts of the of the Synodicon of the Church of the East. We may reproduce both the texts here: The Syrian Orthodox recension, translated by SP Brock:

... And in His Son, the only Begotten who was born from Him, that is, from the essence (ithutho) of his Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God; he was born and was not made; who is of the same nature (bar kyoneh) as the Father ...

The recession of the Church of the East, as translated by Chabot, is as follows:

... light from light, true God from true God, begotten not created, of the same substance (bar ithutho) as the Father, through whom everything came into being, who for us human beings and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate ...

If the creed was developed from something old the homoousios would mean essentially from the same yesh as the Father which is already echoed in Proverbs 8:21 (the beginning of the most important declaration about the nature of the Logos (= wisdom) in the canonical Jewish writings.

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01-30-2012, 07:41 AM	#42
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This source identifies a related term - the Assyrian ishu (= yeshu): http://books.google.com/books?id=h7M...0ithya&f=false

01-30-2012, 09:52 AM	#46
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If the original name was ebion then it would stand that the founder of the Ebionites had the name 'beggar' or 'poor (man).' Not a very common name I would think. If the group was founded by someone named Hebion I think the likelihood is that it has something to do with Jesus the 'hidden power' given that 'those who venerated the hidden power' (= elxasites) are already connected with the hebion/ebionites.

01-30-2012, 10:19 AM	#48
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I began this thread by demonstrating that Hab 3:4 was read by Jews for centuries as “yesh the hidden power.”. Jastrow demonstrates that hebion (= hidden) was pronounced ebion in certain dialects. Justin (transmitted by Tertullian clear took the passage as a prophesy foretelling of the Transfiguration when Jesus (=Yeshu) revealed his divine light nature. I think yesh, the first two letters of the name Jesus, was the origin of our name Jesus. We no longer have Jewish Aramaic documents of earliest Christianity. Nevertheless we still see that the Syrian Church always referenced God (= Jesus) as ithya which ultimately derives from the Hebrew yesh. I wonder any Syriac nomina sacra survive?

01-30-2012, 12:23 PM	#49
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And don't forget transforming yesh into a divine name or a term which means power or god already started in Jewish Aramaic. Its very curious that ithya or ithutha (=yesh).became the word for divinity. Look at the Nicene Creed in Syriac. It might require rethinking the development of early Christianity in Aramaic (not necessarily just the gospel)

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