show_no_mercy

Yeah. Basically when Alexander the Great conquered the ANE, he not only conquered land but conquered cultures. Greeks thought circumcision was barbaric so it eventually left vogue.

The idea that circumcision was some sort of special deal is probably an anachronism written during Hellenistic times.

ziffel

Thread moved from ABR to BC&H

steamer

Why is that? Certainly if I were moses, I'd want to know what this god's interest in my son's pee pee was all about.

As far as the rest of your proposed discussion, doesn't the covenant you speak of rest on the stupidity of the premise that somehow circumcision pleases god?

Also, since there isn't much reason to believe that anything like a captivity or an exodus actually occurrred, why does this detour from that fiction make any more sense than arguing whether the red sea were parted or not?

James Brown

Couple of things:

The Hebrew "feet" is often a euphemism for genitals. See Deut 28:57: And Ezekiel 16:25 Both passages are filled with anger and cursing, giving the euphemism that much power. Much like today, when someone approves a woman having sex, he may say she 'made love.' When someone disapproves, he may say something like, 'she spread her legs.'

Given the violent and disapproving context of this scene in Exodus, I'd say that Moses' genitals is likely the correct translation.

Second, according to Michael Coogan's Oxford History of the Biblical World, both Canaanites and Egyptians practiced circumcision, which makes Abraham's 'invention' of the ritual as an act to set them apart from the people around them very odd. How does it set them apart if everyone else is doing it? However, when Jews found themselves in Babylonian captivity, who did not practice circumcision, then they did find themselves set apart, engaging in a ritual on newborns that the Babylonians may have found abhorrent. So the compilers added in the Abraham story in order to lend a patina of ancient tradition invented just by them so as to better explain themselves.

Then again, if Egyptians practiced circumcision, why wasn't Moses circumcised? Perhaps it wasn't allowed in royal circles, as it implies the male penis is somehow imperfect and non-divine until fixed.

show_no_mercy

I knew I remembered this incorrectly! :blush:

Jimmy Higgins

Circumcision is a big deal. The concentration of it is hardly any matter of concern with this detour narrative as the reader most certainly understands the importance.

Not according to Genesis. God makes a covanent... again... with Abraham... this time. And that covenant requires circumcision. If you don't give a rat's ass about the literature, then why in the world are you wasting your time in this sub-forum?

Because it is exploring and arguing the literature. It is looking at the literature and trying to understand (expose?) it better... it is also a nice tool to use against biblical literalists.

Jimmy Higgins

That makes a ton of sense. Though begs the question why the circumcision is added to Abraham and not Moses... when God makes a covenant again with the Hebrew people. Honestly, God just kept making covenants over and over again. You think the Hebrews would have figured it out after a while, that maybe their god was a shit god.

Why isn't Moses circumcised?
If Moses was circumcised, why wasn't his son and then how did Zipporah know of it?

Anat

Do we know at which age Egyptians and Canaanites were circumcised? The innovation may have been moving of the ritual from puberty to infancy.

AFAIK the only people the Bible explicitly mentions as uncircumcised were the Philistines (who are of Aegean origin).

Sajara

God: I shall protect your people.
Abraham: Okay, I'll go along with this circumcision thing.

Years pass & we have the Jews in Pharoh's bondage.

God: Your people are slaves. I shall protect your people.
Moses: Okay, I'll go along with this circumcision thing.

Years pass & we have the Jews in Hitler's bondage.

What happened to God? He get even more bored with protecting his people?

Jimmy Higgins

Technically speaking, God does warn Abraham that some shit will go down and his people would become enslaved, Genesis 15:13. Says they'll be enslaved for 400 years! :constern02: I think this is a similar point of awakening someone gets when working for Amway and realizing they've been duped.

Maybe you are missing the deal here. Whenever god makes a covenant, the people of that covenant are typically screwed. Israel was invaded and occupied by more civilizations than they'd like to remember. Israel had what... 1 good generation under David... allegedly.