Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 09:48 AM

jxknz

Horatio Parker · 02-04-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I just went through the writings of Philo in order to see how he uses the term ousia. A couple of notes. Philo uses ousia to refer both to the threefold nature of being (spirit, soul, animal), the four elements (fire, water, air and earth) plus what he calls the fifth which is 'divine aether' which he equates with heaven.

This is just skimmed over. Quotes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

You began a thread to explain, especially, one supposes, to those of us with little knowledge of, and even less understanding of, the meaning of "yesh", as it relates, potentially, to "ousia", particularly as the latter relates to the famous conference at Nicea in 325 CE.

As far as I can tell, it's an anachronism. Defined along the lines Stephan is talking about in the middle ages, then projected backwards.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

In his Arabic language work Emunoth ve-Deoth ("Beliefs and Opinions"), Saadia Gaon, a prominent 9th century rabbi and the first great Jewish philosopher, argues that "the world came into existence out of nothingness". This thesis was first translated into Hebrew as "yesh me-Ayin", meaning "something from nothing", in the 11th century.[4]
Ninth and 10th century Jewish philosophers adopted the concept of "yesh me-Ayin", contradicting Greek philosophers and Aristotelian view that the world was created out of primordial matter and/or was eternal.[2]

How this relates to Nicaea seems more in the realm of imagination.

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 09:57 AM

This is just skimmed over. Quotes?

What do you think I am your secretary? How do you like your coffee? I will get to that report after the Superbowl

Horatio Parker · 02-04-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

With regards to our original thread I think this point is decisive:

Quote:

If, then, "the milk" is said by the apostle to belong to the babes, and "meat" to be the food of the full-grown, milk will be understood to be catechetical instruction -- the first food, as it were, of the soul. And meat is the mystic contemplation; for this is the flesh and the blood of the Word, that is, taking hold of the divine power and essence (ληψις τῆς θείας δυνάμεως καὶ οὐσία). "Taste and see that the Lord is Chrestos," it is said. For so He imparts of Himself to those who partake of such food in a more spiritual manner; when now the soul nourishes itself, according to the truth-loving Plato. For the knowledge of the divine essence (ἡ γνῶσίς ἐστι τῆς θείας οὐσίας) is the meat and drink of the divine Word. Wherefore also Plato says, in the second book of the Republic, "It is those that sacrifice not a sow, but some great and difficult sacrifice," who ought to inquire respecting God. And the apostle writes, "Christ our passover was sacrificed for us;" -- a sacrifice hard to procure, in truth, the Son of God consecrated for us. [ibid 5:10]

All Christians partake of the ousia of Jesus in the sacraments. Perhaps this was his only real function - i.e. to embody the divine ousia, the divine yesh

I have no idea what Clement had in mind, but here's that passage in context:

Quote:

Of what tales are you speaking? he said.

You may find a model of the lesser in the greater, I said; for they are necessarily of the same type, and there is the same spirit in both of them.

Very likely, he replied; but I do not as yet know what you would term the greater.

Those, I said, which are narrated by Homer and Hesiod, and the rest of the poets, who have ever been the great story-tellers of mankind.

But which stories do you mean, he said; and what fault do you find with them?

A fault which is most serious, I said; the fault of telling a lie, and, what is more, a bad lie.

But when is this fault committed?

Whenever an erroneous representation is made of the nature of gods and heroes, --as when a painter paints a portrait not having the shadow of a likeness to the original.

Yes, he said, that sort of thing is certainly very blamable; but what are the stories which you mean?

First of all, I said, there was that greatest of all lies, in high places, which the poet told about Uranus, and which was a bad lie too, --I mean what Hesiod says that Uranus did, and how Cronus retaliated on him. The doings of Cronus, and the sufferings which in turn his son inflicted upon him, even if they were true, ought certainly not to be lightly told to young and thoughtless persons; if possible, they had better be buried in silence. But if there is an absolute necessity for their mention, a chosen few might hear them in a mystery, and they should sacrifice not a common [Eleusinian] pig, but some huge and unprocurable victim; and then the number of the hearers will be very few indeed.

Plato is talking about stories that are untruthful and damaging to the soul. The "greater sacrifice" is to make such stories less accessible therefore fewer might be influenced by them.

I would guess Clement was quoting or paraphrasing from memory.

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 10:16 AM

I will say it must have sounded odd to pagans to hear early Jews and Christians being obsessed with SEEING the divine ousia. I think Celsus touches on the inherent strangeness of this

Horatio Parker · 02-04-2012, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This is just skimmed over. Quotes?

What do you think I am your secretary? How do you like your coffee? I will get to that report after the Superbowl

First of all, it was a request. If I am in a position to give you orders, that's news to me.

If you want to make a case for Philo's use of ousia(here on a discussion forum), then yes, please provide some quotes. We're talking about a major thinker, author of many books, using an important term with centuries of thought associated with. Yes, skimming is the right word. No big deal, I can take your statement at face value.

There will be other threads....and I'll be standing here with someone new. There will other songs to sing, another fall another spring etc.

Horatio Parker · 02-04-2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I will say it must have sounded odd to pagans to hear early Jews and Christians being obsessed with SEEING the divine ousia. I think Celsus touches on the inherent strangeness of this

Porphyry: On the Life of Plotinus and the Arrangement of his Work

Quote:

Sleeplessly alert--Apollo tells--pure of soul, ever striving towards the divine which he loved with all his being, he laboured strenuously to free himself and rise above the bitter waves of this blood-drenched life: and this is why to Plotinus--God-like and lifting himself often, by the ways of meditation and by the methods Plato teaches in the Banquet[Symposium], to the first and all-transcendent God--that God appeared, the God who has neither shape nor form but sits enthroned above the Intellectual-Principle and all the Intellectual-Sphere.

'There was shown to Plotinus the Term ever near': for the Term, the one end, of his life was to become Uniate, to approach to the God over all: and four times, during the period I passed with him, he achieved this Term, by no mere latent fitness but by the ineffable Act.

To this God, I also declare, I Porphyry, that in my sixty-eighth year I too was once admitted and I entered into Union.

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 10:39 AM

Hey you know I was just joking about the secretary thing. Sometimes it doesn't across in dry posts. Thanks for the Plotinus quote.

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller
With regards to our original thread I think this point is decisive:

Quote:
If, then, "the milk" is said by the apostle to belong to the babes, and "meat" to be the food of the full-grown, milk will be understood to be catechetical instruction -- the first food, as it were, of the soul. And meat is the mystic contemplation; for this is the flesh and the blood of the Word, that is, taking hold of the divine power and essence (ληψις τῆς θείας δυνάμεως καὶ οὐσία). "Taste and see that the Lord is Chrestos," it is said. For so He imparts of Himself to those who partake of such food in a more spiritual manner; when now the soul nourishes itself, according to the truth-loving Plato. For the knowledge of the divine essence (ἡ γνῶσίς ἐστι τῆς θείας οὐσίας) is the meat and drink of the divine Word. Wherefore also Plato says, in the second book of the Republic, "It is those that sacrifice not a sow, but some great and difficult sacrifice," who ought to inquire respecting God. And the apostle writes, "Christ our passover was sacrificed for us;" -- a sacrifice hard to procure, in truth, the Son of God consecrated for us. [ibid 5:10]
All Christians partake of the ousia of Jesus in the sacraments. Perhaps this was his only real function - i.e. to embody the divine ousia, the divine yesh
I have no idea what Clement had in mind, but here's that passage in context:

Quote:
Of what tales are you speaking? he said.

You may find a model of the lesser in the greater, I said; for they are necessarily of the same type, and there is the same spirit in both of them.

Very likely, he replied; but I do not as yet know what you would term the greater.

Those, I said, which are narrated by Homer and Hesiod, and the rest of the poets, who have ever been the great story-tellers of mankind.

But which stories do you mean, he said; and what fault do you find with them?

A fault which is most serious, I said; the fault of telling a lie, and, what is more, a bad lie.

But when is this fault committed?

Whenever an erroneous representation is made of the nature of gods and heroes, --as when a painter paints a portrait not having the shadow of a likeness to the original.

Yes, he said, that sort of thing is certainly very blamable; but what are the stories which you mean?

First of all, I said, there was that greatest of all lies, in high places, which the poet told about Uranus, and which was a bad lie too, --I mean what Hesiod says that Uranus did, and how Cronus retaliated on him. The doings of Cronus, and the sufferings which in turn his son inflicted upon him, even if they were true, ought certainly not to be lightly told to young and thoughtless persons; if possible, they had better be buried in silence. But if there is an absolute necessity for their mention, a chosen few might hear them in a mystery, and they should sacrifice not a common [Eleusinian] pig, but some huge and unprocurable victim; and then the number of the hearers will be very few indeed.
Plato is talking about stories that are untruthful and damaging to the soul. The "greater sacrifice" is to make such stories less accessible therefore fewer might be influenced by them.

The context of this quote has nothing to do with Plato. It is dealing with the sacraments of the Christian Church.

Quote:

Akin to this is what the holy Apostle Paul says, preserving the prophetic and truly ancient secret from which the teachings that were good were derived by the Greeks: "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them who are perfect; but not the wisdom of this world, or of the princes of this world, that come to nought; but we speak the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery." Then proceeding, he thus inculcates the caution against the divulging of his words to the multitude in the following terms: "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not yet able; neither are ye now able. For ye are yet carnal."

If, then, "the milk" is said by the apostle to belong to the babes, and "meat" to be the food of the full-grown, milk will be understood to be catechetical instruction -- the first food, as it were, of the soul. And meat is the mystic contemplation; for this is the flesh and the blood of the Word, that is, the comprehension of the divine power and essence. "Taste and see that the Lord is Christ," it is said. For so He imparts of Himself to those who partake of such food in a more spiritual manner; when now the soul nourishes itself, according to the truth-loving Plato. For the knowledge of the divine essence is the meat and drink of the divine Word. Wherefore also Plato says, in the second book of the Republic, "It is those that sacrifice not a sow, but some great and difficult sacrifice," who ought to inquire respecting God. And the apostle writes, "Christ our passover was sacrificed for us;" -- a sacrifice hard to procure, in truth, the Son of God consecrated for us.

sotto voce · 02-04-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It is dealing with the sacraments of the Christian Church.

Myth, then.

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02-04-2012, 09:48 AM	#131
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	jxknz

02-04-2012, 09:57 AM	#133
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This is just skimmed over. Quotes? What do you think I am your secretary? How do you like your coffee? I will get to that report after the Superbowl

02-04-2012, 10:16 AM	#135
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I will say it must have sounded odd to pagans to hear early Jews and Christians being obsessed with SEEING the divine ousia. I think Celsus touches on the inherent strangeness of this

02-04-2012, 10:39 AM	#138
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Hey you know I was just joking about the secretary thing. Sometimes it doesn't across in dry posts. Thanks for the Plotinus quote.

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