Jack the Bodiless

Helpmabob:
So, the Bible is "absolutely stacked full" of prophecies, and you're "happy" to discuss prophetic aspects of the Bible: but you're not actually prepared to present and discuss a single specimen?

There are certain criteria which any proposed "successful prophecy" must meet. And I think you know what they are, hence your reluctance. A prophecy must be reasonably specific and unambiguous, must definitely have been written before the event prophesied, and must have been verifiably fulfilled.

Helpmabob

Hi Johnny - Apply yourself to the following: witness prophecy fulfilled; use intellect and intuition; cling to what is good and resist evil. It takes effort, but it is rewarded. Once a man entertains for a minute that his soul’s destiny is at stake it sure concentrates the mind.
Are you expecting there to be an afterlife?You can believe that if you want. You have to believe something after all. Meanwhile, I’ll continue to believe in and worship God. This fact won’t completely deter us from discussing things.And what does Johnny Skeptic ‘claim’? It is all revealed in the Bible, with explanation of God’s unmerited concern and overwhelming love for us: divine grace. Do you understand grace?

Hi Doug - It depends on the context. It depends on what criteria we are working with and what is ultimately at stake. We know that prophecy was used in the Bible because the evidence is there in front of our eyes.

Hi Jack – The Bible is not a textbook or a newspaper, nor is it great ‘modern’ entertainment. It is primarily to reveal God’s glory and purpose and to draw man to Him. Jesus was clearly prefigured in Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 9: a form of prophecy.

Of course, it can be denied. If man can deny the existence of God in the sight of this: http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/1...ormats/web.jpg then he can deny the prophetic nature of the Bible no problem.

Jack the Bodiless

There is no indication within Isaiah 53 that it was intended to apply to a future "Messiah": indeed, Isaiah elsewhere clearly specifies that the "Suffering Servant" is an allegorical representation of Israel. And did Jesus "clearly" suffer from disease, as the original Hebrew of Isaiah 53 indicates? Did he live a long life? Did he have children?

And the only reason Zechariah 9:9 is claimed to prefigure Jesus is that the authors of the gospels liked what Zechariah wrote in chapter 9, wanted it to be applied to Jesus, and wrote the "fulfillment" into their own tales. Unfortunately, the author of Matthew goofed in the process, and misunderstood Zechariah's double-reference Hebrew idiom, having Jesus ride two animals...
I see a picture of Saturn. Which, according to the Hebrews, was just a little light attached to the solid sky-dome a few hundred miles above our heads. Utterly irrelevant to any discussion of prophecy though.

EarlOfLade

Fullfilled prophecies? LOLOLOLOL
Another religious stand-up comedian has joined us!


Fullfilled like the failed second coming?
After what? Death? Ofcourse not. There is not a single shred of evidence for anything happening after your brain stops working. Nada, zilch, zip zero!

When you are dead, you are dead and I look forward to it in a way.

Why do I have to believe something?
And I guess with "something" you are referring to some religious crap?

I base my opinions on what is physically possible and what has been observed. We have sor far, not observed anything happening after you die. Nothing!

Which I read as "Meanwhile, I will continue to live a lie and lull myself into believeing that I'm better than everyone else" Typical religious egoism.

It is certainly obvious that you don't understand what grace means.

The bible is a hodgepodge of stories written to support some peoples power hunger, just like we see "christians" do today. Nothing has changed, religion and gods are used for personal power and exploitation of people and is in general a tool used to keep the masses in control and subservant.

Eeehhh... What's that got to do with a god?
And why do you feel that god is a word needed when you look at that picture?

Sven

:huh:

P1 Saturn exists.
P2 ?????
C god exists

Could you please explain what premise 2 is?

Johnny Skeptic

As an agnostic, I do not expect anything. The universe is old, vast, complex, and full of possibilities. What I meant was that if a supernatural being created the universe, is it not a reasonable possibility that he plans to eventually reveal his specific existence and will to humans in the next life? I doubt that you will claim that the creator of the universe is obligated to reveal his specific existence and will to humans in this life. If a supernatural being inspired the writing of the Bible, he might not be the kind of being who you think he is. Luke 10:25-28 say "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternalHe said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." A commitment like that is not possible by using logic, but it is possible by using faith. If faith is used, then one person's faith is as valid as another person's faith. If the Bible is more logical that other religious books, that is not sufficient evidence. "Better than" does not necessarily mean "true". If an evil being inspired the writing of the Bible and all other religious books, he could easily have "stacked the deck" in favor of the Bible in order to make it appear to some people that the Bible is more logical than other religious books, but then again, whoever said that religion had anything to do with logic? The point is, any being with sufficient power, whether he is good or evil, is easily able to reveal OR conceal his true intentions according to his wishes.

FatherMithras

You may be a tad confused. The picture you showed us is of Saturn, not of God. So, now that that's corrected, there shouldn't be any more inane comments like that.

Boro Nut

I hope you're not implying Saturn isn't a God. Just you wait till next St. Pagan's eve. You aren't half going to cop for it my lad. You'd better get drunk on fly agaric and piss on the Stone of Scone while singing Nellie Dean before then if you dont want a trident up your jacksy. Mind you, I've met a few Americans who could do with three arses.

Boro Nut

Helpmabob

Hi Jack - It absolutely doesn’t matter that Isaiah did not know who Jesus was when he was moved to write these words. The salient point thing is that biblical prophecy is inspired by God, and does not require the writer to know the prophetic meaning of his text, only the literal. Whereas Isaiah would know he was writing about Israel, I’ m not sure he would not have foreseen the additional applicability to Jesus. No, neither was He literally a medium sized country in the Middle East composed of twelve tribes. But Isaiah 53:11,12 has the necessary crux of it all: After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. [Isaiah 53:11]. This clearly portrays none other than the Jesus. It cannot reasonably be denied that this is prophetic. Can you expand/clarify please?You are saying that the Bible is made up or corrupted. You are not the first to say this, and if you are determined to choose that path, it reduces the scope for enlightened discussion. But if we leave aside the outright rejection on the grounds that the actual events of Jesus life are presented in the gospels, then we have the following: Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. [Zechariah 9:9]. Apart from the mode of transport used by Jesus, the whole character of the man and His followers is revealed here.It’s awesome and perfectly relevant to what man will deny though.

Hi Earlof Lade - Please tell me you can agree that because the second coming hasn’t happened yet, this does not invalidate the prophecy?I think you do.I think you believe something religiously, but from the extent of what you wrote about your own personal views here, it is hard to be sure.

Hi Sven – I was illustrating the beauty and magnitude that man in his pride is denying.

Hi Johnny - Wouldn’t you like to be able to expect something – to have a firm promise to look forward to?

I tend to agree with you here (for a change). However, at the end of the day, a lot does depend upon what that faith is placed in.Yes, I am aware that your opinion is that that is a possibility. So what bearing does this have on the fact that Zechariah wrote about the king on the donkey, before Jesus rode triumphantly into town on a donkey?

Sven

I don't deny anything. Saturn certainly looks beautiful.

So let's try again:

P1 Saturn is beautiful and displays great magnitude.
P2 ?????
C god exists

Could you please explain what premise 2 is?