Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 11-25-2003, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
I do not regard all of these with the same probability. I don't know if there was a gentile mission in the first century. I think there was. I am sure that Vespasian, 1 Mac, and JBap were historical. But then, none of these lived lives that were apparently drawn out of the OT. Can you show me which Roman holy document Vespasian's like is apparently drawn from?

It might help you in applying your wonderful skeptic methodology to actually read the OP of the thread. Josephus is the one applying the OT prophecies to Vespasian.

Vorkosigan · 11-25-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Just to be clear, there may have been "Christians" in Rome in the first century, but they would have been Jews, and we don't really know what they believed or what connection they had to The Way or the people who were later known as Christians.

I suspect that the mission to the Gentiles (meaning preaching a new religion to people who were not ever expected to become circumcized or follow the Jewish laws) happened after 70 CE.

The problem with early Christian history is that it doesn't make sense. It's like a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces can't fit together. You have to decide where a piece might be missing, where a piece might have been carved into a different shape for some reason, where an extra piece got in from a different puzzle. I haven't read (or read of) any one who has actually put together a coherent story of Paul.

I second all these comments.

Vorkosigan

Layman · 11-25-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan Just bring on the methodology. We're going on three years here and you and your apologist cohorts have been unable to supply any rational solid historical reason to support your conclusions. Just faith-claims and vapor.

I've posted in more substance and in more depth than you've ever attempted here Vork. Just another drive-by!

BTW, this whole thread was supposed to be about methodology. Too bad you haven't read the OP.

Quote:

Are you seriously suggesting that you even understand what Toto is saying? Because you obviously don't.

I seriously suspect Toto does not even understand what he is saying much of the time.

Layman · 11-25-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
I second all these comments.

Vorkosigan

Powerful methodlogy, Vork. I agree with what he said!

Vorkosigan · 11-25-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
It might help you in applying your wonderful skeptic methodology to actually read the OP of the thread. Josephus is the one applying the OT prophecies to Vespasian.

As I actually said, which actions of Vespasian's life are made up out Roman holy documents? Which actions of Vespasian's life did Josephus make up out of the Old Testament?

Vorkosigan

Layman · 11-25-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
As I actually said, which actions of Vespasian's life are made up out Roman holy documents? Which actions of Vespasian's life did Josephus make up out of the Old Testament?

Vorkosigan

None. That's the point.

Vorkosigan · 11-25-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
[B]I've posted in more substance and in more depth than you've ever attempted here Vork. Just another drive-by!

Neither you nor any other apologetic poster has ever offered a sound historical methodology. Rather, you spend a lot of time fixated on Doherty, and very little making a positive case. In case you forgot, let me direct you back to Crossan's comments in the Birth of Christianity: "There is no widely accepted methodology....." Until there is, no historicist has any case. Your certainty is based on religious faith, not serious scholarship.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 11-25-2003, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
None. That's the point.

Again, Layman. Which events from Vespasian's life are made up out of the OT or Roman Holy Documents by any writer?

Vorkosigan

Layman · 11-25-2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Again, Layman. Which events from Vespasian's life are made up out of the OT or Roman Holy Documents by any writer?

Vorkosigan

Per the Old Testament, None.

I'm not as familiar with, or interested in, Roman holy documents--whatever those are.

Are you going to keep asking the same question?

Layman · 11-25-2003, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Neither you nor any other apologetic poster has ever offered a sound historical methodology.

In your opinion you mean. We've employed and discussed many of the criteria of historical inquiry. If you want to start another thread on this, go ahead. If you want to discuss whether similarities between the OT and events reported by Jewish and Christians writiers renders the passages inauthentic, please start.

Quote:

Rather, you spend a lot of time fixated on Doherty, and very little making a positive case.

Actually, I used to hate threads on Doherty until I saw he was not going away. So yes, I spend a lot of time undermining his theories now. And, at the same time, showing that Paul and othe early Christian writers were referring to a real human being.

Quote:

In case you forgot, let me direct you back to Crossan's comments in the Birth of Christianity: "There is no widely accepted methodology....." Until there is, no historicist has any case. Your certainty is based on religious faith, not serious scholarship.

Many of the things I am certain about are based on religious faith. That Jesus existed, however, is the best historical explanation available.

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