ThinkingMan

The above list is in NO way synonymous with your “abridged version.” Did you even read it? This isn’t a list of sins: it’s a list of prophet’s pet peeves. What “way out” are you talking about? Are you saying your god doesn’t require you to do the things on this list? What about Romans 6:1,2:

Some of the things on the list are just stupid.
Tattoos? Rioting? Despising government? Whispering? Complaining? Tattling? Cursing the rich? Arguing with your employer? Joking? Youthful lust? Sorceries? Not paying your taxes? Witchcraft?

What about loving your life (John 12:25)? If that is a sin, then what does a christian tell someone who is suicidal?

There is one sin which I have to agree with: 306. STRIKING A MAN IN THE GROIN. But, if a woman hits me in the fun sack, should I really cut off her hand (Deut 25:11,12)?

By the way, you should not dispute anything I say because that would be a sin (Philippians 2:14).

Sheshonq

You didn't even answer his question.

spamandham

...or simply ignore the psychotic ramblings of ancient lunatics and move on with life. That's an even easier way out.

Chili

Could you speak for yourself please?

Freedom from the law is freedom from sin for which only relgioud people can sin until they are set free from the yoke of slavery [to religion and sin

sschlichter

Romans 1 - 3 is a pretty clear explanation of sin. Paul describes all as sinners, all fall short, atheist, religious, those that have the law, those that do not, those that pray, those that do not, are all falling short of what God intended. It summarizes at 3:9-3:23.

It then goes on to explain how righteousness can be credited to those that are not righteous (everyone) through Christ's perfect righteousness starting at 3:24.

There are lists, but the Bible teaches that sin is a condition that effects all of us. The lists are referring to symptoms of that condition typically. Christ taught that looking at a women lustfully was adultery and hating was killing, which means that all men commit adultery (for example), so it's inclusion in any list should be damning to everyone that is telling the truth to themselves.

About a dozen people will jump on this reply with all sorts of expletives but I am just trying to answer the question of what the Bible says about sin.

ThinkingMan

You do a good job presenting your position without beating us over the head with it. You say that all people fall short of god's intentions. A secular way of stating this would be to say that a person can always improve their personal morals, limit their shortcomings, and exert control over their vices. I think I can appreciate this truth as well as you without a spiritual framework.

You mention righteousness. Righteousness is measured by how closely we adhere to our set of morals. Religious people try to enforce a particular set of morals based on their own sect's interpretation of scripture. Atheists each have their own subjective set of morals, but we don't see them as being any more subjective than those of religious people. Think about this: if you are trying to be righteous then you are really just trying to adopt a set of morals for yourself. This requires willpower. Sin is not a physical entity that infects us: it is the vices we are prone to. What infects us is a lack of willpower. This is the cause of your "symptoms". Focusing on a list of vices would be addressing the symptoms, but improving your personal willpower would be addressing the cause.

My objection, however, is that I don't think that mere faith will improve my willpower/righteousness. I can improve my willpower with training and perhaps a friend who would support me. Deceiving myself into believing that I don't have to do anything other than accept the power of Jesus to change my behavior won't get me any closer to overcoming my own shortcomings.

evangelical

Your use of John 19:7 is a text book illustration of why nonbelievers think they can find contradictions in the Bible. In a word, you've taken the verse out of context.

The law that Jesus "broke" was blasphemy. Blasphemy is when one who is not God claims to be God. Jesus claimed to be God, it is true, but He actually was (and is) God. He proved that He was God by the Resurrection. What is more, other verses of the Bible make it clear that the people were looking for an excuse to put Him to death. In other words, the whole context is one of trumped up charges in a kangaroo court.

Your final comment, I find myself agreeing with, with qualification. I would say that it was not so much the Jews who were responsible for the death of Jesus, or the Romans, but I myself. Yet in spite of the tragedy of the cross, the greatest thing of all was made possible. That is, way of salvation has been opened up to me (and you, if you shall accept the free gift). It is only by His grace that men and women can stand.

Helpmabob

It is – inasmuch as we can’t follow the long list, neither can we follow the two short requirements. No matter how hard we try, the salient thing is that we can’t.Christ is the way.What about that? Shall we do more bad that more good may result? It was misguided thinking then and it would be misguided philosophy now.

spamandham

Blasphemy was not the reason Jesus was crucified. He was crucified because he pissed off the Pharisees by disrespecting the Sabbath (see Mark 3:1-6). They began plotting his death at that point. By the time he was arrested, he was already a marked man. It didn't matter what he said, they were going to execute him.

How can you claim to know there are no contradictions, when you don't even understand the stories?

Toto

Hi evangelical: Chili is a believer. He's on your side, not ours.

Cheers.