Gawen

helo...do you have a time frame for the Exodus?

Doug Shaver

Then you didn't answer my question. Let's try this again.

Why?

Doug Shaver

Yes, of course. What is not reasonable is to base an argument on the assumption that it did. A document that *could* exist cannot be used as evidence for anything.

QRUEL

so are you saying that we should consider all the events of the OT as true until someone unearths some stone tablets that confirm these outlandish events ? when none of these events can be confirmed outside of the bible ? that certaintly does not seem very reasonable or logical

the other problem is how do you discern what is metaphorical and what isn't ?

FatherMithras

Interesting idea. If you find anything at all to substantiate any of this, I'd like to hear it.

Allright, then you are on the utter fringe inline with YEC. You don't even know what archetypes are, as shown by your previous posts. Here is an intro, they are common themes found in the human mind that tend to arise in numerous cultures. For example, giants, dragons, floods. I'm begging you to actually read up on what you're talking about.

Primitive Mythology by Joseph Campbell. Freud wrote some on it too, though he tried to psychoanalyze the idea. It's one of the oldest myths we've got. look hard and you'll find it.

So why would the Hebrews have written about them and remebered them hundreds of years after the fact? Sorry bro, more unsubstantiated claims. Your alternative "theories" which cannot be called theories since they aren't supported with evidence (so we'll call them conjecture) have no weight until they have evidence.

But you need evidence anything happened first. Or we can say vag teeth was some weird historical event.

No. It lends credence to it never happening. A lack of any evidence doesn't support anything but that.

A clay tablet? How about any archaeological evidence that anything in the Exodus happened, or that there were plagues in egyot, or that anything you've mentioned has any basis in reality. I understand your desire to expound upon this, but you are literally working with no evidence and your own ideas. Might make sense, but it's simply got no weight to it.

Helo

For the event itself? Well considering it was after the Sed celebration of Ramses II (Which is supposed to happen after Pharoah has reigned for 30 years). Now considering that the most agreed uppon date for him taking the throne is 1279 bc. However we dont know the exact years which is problematic because many of the guesses dont fit within the timeframe so we need to have an accurate count of how long Ramses ruled, when he took power etc etc. Also we dont have an exact date of death for his son, Amun-her-khepsef. He died between the ages of 40 and 45. If you apply the theory above to your question, looking at Amun-her-khepsef's date of death and subtracting maybe a year would probably give you an accurate number.

Because that seems far more likely to me than the bible being an actual historical record or a complete work of fiction.

This my friend is MY area, ancient warfare is something Ive studdied for a long time.

And I disagree with the idea of archetypes. Ive read enough to form an opinion and my opinion is that archetypes are not valid.

Would you want to remember how your people were set free after being slaves or something in close aproximation? And the Egyptians would have strong motivation to erase the event from history, shame. A bunch of desert people defeated Pharoah, thats incredibly humiliating. Thats like you getting in a fight with a blind, drunk, gay midget and getting your ass whooped. Its not something your going to shout from the rooftops.

Is there a disease that can cause vaginal tissue to change and feel like small teeth to the touch?

Lack of evidence for does not mean evidence against. There are many things in history and science that originated or are built on pure guesswork

Look at this from a practical standpoint.

What archeological evidence would there be? Well that probably means some kind of record. The only people keeping records at that point had serious motivation NOT to on that particular occasion. The Hebrews did but I dont exactly trust that record (parts of the bible). What else could you find? Skeletons in the desert? They would have been ground to dust many thousands of years before today. Dropped luggage? Burried under tons of sand.

And your right, I'd LIKE it to be true, but I know theres not enough evidence to definitively prove it. Im just saying theres enough there not to just write it off as bogus and move on.

QRUEL

i totally disagree with your viewpoint. first I don't think what you've put forth is practical, it is impractical, cause once again it relies not on evidence but guessing without any evidence to back up your claim.

now say, if perhaps you could show that they had consistently over time not recorded things that would have been embarassing, that other cultures took note of, it would give your arguement a little bit of wieght. but i have yet to see anything that would support that

Helo

Your in luck, there are some pretty major examples. The biggest one being of Atenism and Akhenaten. When Akhenated died, he was immedieately followed by annother Pharoah who only ruled they believe a few months to a year before being replaced by Tutankhamun, Akhenaten's son. Tutankhamun died suddenly and was succeded by one of his advisors, Ay. Ay ruled for about four years and was then succeded by Horemheb, Tutankhamun's chief of the army. Horemheb tried to systematically wipe out any historical mention of Akhenaten or his son.

FatherMithras

No offense, but you haven't shown anything to that affect. You clearly have a deent idea of how the battle could have occured, but exactly ZERO that this happened. You're concocting a scenario in your own mind with no external verification and do it remains a bit of clever imagination only.

That's not a challenge to the fact they exist. You've shown nothing to refute any of the examples and shown you clearly don't know anything aout archetypes. 'm not trying to be offensive at all, but your lack of knowledge on the topic renders your opinion moot. It's like the creationists challenging evolution.

So the absence of any kind of evidence is proof? Sorry, the stories don't match up with any archaelogy and fail independent verification. Your imagination is clever, but nothing you say has any kind of external support other than your own interesting yet innacurate hypothesis.

Burden of proof in on the person making the positive assertion. We not only don't have evidence for anything you've said, we have STRONG evidence there were no jews in Egpyt and the Exodus never occured.

PLEASE READ THE PAPERS I SENT YOU. The great thing about the desert is how incredibly easy it is to find traces archaelogically of peoples movements. Once again, a clear indication you're not qualified to assess this information. We HAVE found evidence from BEFORE the time the exodus is claimed to have occured for very small groups of people wandering about. The desert is wonderful for archaelogists. once again, read up on the actual information rather than making guesswork assertions. Common sense tends to fail, and is failing you now.

I agree. I TOTALLY agree. We should continue to examine the areas and history. Unfortunately, all the evidence is against such an idea. I'm begging you to actually read up on mythology formation and ancient history according to scholars who are relevant in the field. You've shown a clear lack of basic knowledge on this thread and it hurts your argument. Assertions like myth borrowing wouldn't happen, that absence of evidence is actually evidence for something occuring, complete disregard for the basics of mth formation, etc are really hurting your assertions.

FatherMithras

Helo is right about the Egyptians not recording stuff alot. However, there are still records of what went on and archaelogical evidence, as well as evidence from other cultures, to prove it. These factors are missing from helo's argument.