Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Xixax · 10-28-2003, 01:06 PM

I've heard that expression quite often, as my father has used it "on me" several times.

I got some very bad news today. News that is an actual matter of life and death for me. Should the tests come back positive, it will be a rather sickeningly difficult time for me.

This of course, considering I was once a "born again believer" pushed that question to the front of my mind and I can say honestly, I'm an atheist/agnostic in a foxhole. This possible trauma doesn't change the evidence for or against deities, and I'm not capable of being irrational enough to appeal to imaginary forces to help me through this.

So, to all the hostile lurking theists, your statement, by evidence ( as if you're not used to this ), is wrong.

There are atheists in foxholes.

seebs · 10-28-2003, 01:11 PM

First, let me say I hope things turn out well.

Anyway, the existence proof is, of course, unambiguous and final.

What's really distressing is that people offer the "atheists in foxholes" argument as though it proved anything. This argument works for almost anything. "Everyone really believes that life is horrible pain and suffering." "No they don't." "Well, there are no people who don't believe that on the rack being worked over with hot pokers."

I have to say, "my position is one people tend to fall into when they are under too much stress to consider things rationally" is a poor argument indeed.

rainbow walking · 10-28-2003, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xixax
I've heard that expression quite often, as my father has used it "on me" several times.

I got some very bad news today. News that is an actual matter of life and death for me. Should the tests come back positive, it will be a rather sickeningly difficult time for me.

This of course, considering I was once a "born again believer" pushed that question to the front of my mind and I can say honestly, I'm an atheist/agnostic in a foxhole. This possible trauma doesn't change the evidence for or against deities, and I'm not capable of being irrational enough to appeal to imaginary forces to help me through this.

So, to all the hostile lurking theists, your statement, by evidence ( as if you're not used to this ), is wrong.

There are atheists in foxholes.

rw: Sorry to hear that Xixax, hope everything turns out well for you.

beastmaster · 10-28-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xixax
I got some very bad news today. News that is an actual matter of life and death for me. Should the tests come back positive, it will be a rather sickeningly difficult time for me.

I hope you beat the odds, Xixax.

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
I have to say, "my position is one people tend to fall into when they are under too much stress to consider things rationally" is a poor argument indeed.

:notworthy

Xixax · 10-28-2003, 01:28 PM

Don't worry about it. As it stands I'm counting on getting back good news. I'm hoping that it's something more along the line of maxillary osteoma instead of any malignant cancerous growth. They found fragmented non-viable bone in my upper right gums under a severely underdeveloped wisdom tooth.

They took samples of the tissue and determined it was non-viable bone, and the first sample showed no signs of malignancy whatsoever. At the same time, in someone my age, they have never seen anything like this so they want to do another biopsy and test.

My guess is that it is the Osteoma as most cases I see range wildly in age from mid teens to senior patients, and cases of cancer are normally in older patients or patients with habits and environments that would make them more prone to such a problem, both of which I don't have.

Any Dr's in the house with this kind of experience? They're stumped as to any reason "why" at this point, which is what is making them take a further sample.

Essentially: non-viable bone tissue next to a severely underdeveloped wisdom tooth.

*shrugs*

McNamara · 10-28-2003, 01:31 PM

Good luck with everything, Xixax. My fiancee is dealing with kidney cancer (for the second time) as we speak.

About atheists in foxholes: I know there are numerous atheist veterans in this forum. How many were in combat, I'm not sure, but there have certainly been atheists killed in the line of duty. If this war continues, I'll be an 'atheist in a cockpit' soon.

lpetrich · 10-28-2003, 02:15 PM

I'm reluctant to mention Communists as examples, but there have certainly been Communists in foxholes, including Communist revolutionaries.

Also, it's possible to be an atheist and believe in life after death, such as becoming a ghost and haunting a house.

And does anyone ever make their last words "See you in Heaven"?

McNamara · 10-28-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
I'm reluctant to mention Communists as examples, but there have certainly been Communists in foxholes, including Communist revolutionaries.

Almost forgot about them. How could I? Millions of atheists served in combat in WWII. Certainly there were some in the Red Army who only professed atheism to get along in society, but I'm sure a great many didn't expect help from a deity in battle, or believe in an afterlife.

Jobar · 10-28-2003, 08:52 PM

Xixax, if that sort of thing doesn't run in your family, you're probably all right; but I'd be nervous as hell, too. Hope the tests turn out OK.

I thought about putting this thread in our Secular Life forum, but I think it might better suit GRD. More people post there, too; I don't know of any cancer specialists who post to II, but we have at least one doctor and several nurses. Maybe one will see your thread soon. Jobar.

articwolf · 10-28-2003, 10:22 PM

Xixax - I hope you get good news!

As far as the atheists in foxholes argument goes, its quite silly. There have been believers who have lost their faith in foxholes because of the horrendous conditions of war is proof to them that there is no all-loving and caring god. Of course, we can extend the no atheists in foxholes idea to any stressful and desperate situation. However, as has already been pointed out, a desperate response to an emotionally stressful situation does not prove the existence of deity - it only proves that the foxhole resident is human and that fear can be a very powerful thing. . .

10-28-2003, 01:06 PM	#1
Xixax Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,101	Atheists in foxholes I've heard that expression quite often, as my father has used it "on me" several times. I got some very bad news today. News that is an actual matter of life and death for me. Should the tests come back positive, it will be a rather sickeningly difficult time for me. This of course, considering I was once a "born again believer" pushed that question to the front of my mind and I can say honestly, I'm an atheist/agnostic in a foxhole. This possible trauma doesn't change the evidence for or against deities, and I'm not capable of being irrational enough to appeal to imaginary forces to help me through this. So, to all the hostile lurking theists, your statement, by evidence ( as if you're not used to this ), is wrong. There are atheists in foxholes.

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10-28-2003, 01:11 PM	#2
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	First, let me say I hope things turn out well. Anyway, the existence proof is, of course, unambiguous and final. What's really distressing is that people offer the "atheists in foxholes" argument as though it proved anything. This argument works for almost anything. "Everyone really believes that life is horrible pain and suffering." "No they don't." "Well, there are no people who don't believe that on the rack being worked over with hot pokers." I have to say, "my position is one people tend to fall into when they are under too much stress to consider things rationally" is a poor argument indeed.

10-28-2003, 01:28 PM	#5
Xixax Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,101	Don't worry about it. As it stands I'm counting on getting back good news. I'm hoping that it's something more along the line of maxillary osteoma instead of any malignant cancerous growth. They found fragmented non-viable bone in my upper right gums under a severely underdeveloped wisdom tooth. They took samples of the tissue and determined it was non-viable bone, and the first sample showed no signs of malignancy whatsoever. At the same time, in someone my age, they have never seen anything like this so they want to do another biopsy and test. My guess is that it is the Osteoma as most cases I see range wildly in age from mid teens to senior patients, and cases of cancer are normally in older patients or patients with habits and environments that would make them more prone to such a problem, both of which I don't have. Any Dr's in the house with this kind of experience? They're stumped as to any reason "why" at this point, which is what is making them take a further sample. Essentially: non-viable bone tissue next to a severely underdeveloped wisdom tooth. shrugs

10-28-2003, 01:31 PM	#6
McNamara Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: United States Posts: 1,167	Good luck with everything, Xixax. My fiancee is dealing with kidney cancer (for the second time) as we speak. About atheists in foxholes: I know there are numerous atheist veterans in this forum. How many were in combat, I'm not sure, but there have certainly been atheists killed in the line of duty. If this war continues, I'll be an 'atheist in a cockpit' soon.

10-28-2003, 02:15 PM	#7
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I'm reluctant to mention Communists as examples, but there have certainly been Communists in foxholes, including Communist revolutionaries. Also, it's possible to be an atheist and believe in life after death, such as becoming a ghost and haunting a house. And does anyone ever make their last words "See you in Heaven"?

10-28-2003, 08:52 PM	#9
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Xixax, if that sort of thing doesn't run in your family, you're probably all right; but I'd be nervous as hell, too. Hope the tests turn out OK. I thought about putting this thread in our Secular Life forum, but I think it might better suit GRD. More people post there, too; I don't know of any cancer specialists who post to II, but we have at least one doctor and several nurses. Maybe one will see your thread soon. Jobar.

10-28-2003, 10:22 PM	#10
articwolf Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: USA Posts: 13	Xixax - I hope you get good news! As far as the atheists in foxholes argument goes, its quite silly. There have been believers who have lost their faith in foxholes because of the horrendous conditions of war is proof to them that there is no all-loving and caring god. Of course, we can extend the no atheists in foxholes idea to any stressful and desperate situation. However, as has already been pointed out, a desperate response to an emotionally stressful situation does not prove the existence of deity - it only proves that the foxhole resident is human and that fear can be a very powerful thing. . .

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