Sheshbazzar

"What's the matter with you people?"
Nice expression to invite any real reconcilliation.......NOT

And no I have never heard of that song, but then there are hundreds of thousands of Pop songs that I've never heard of, and shouldn't be expected to have heard of, as any necessary adjunct to participating in an Abrahamic Religions, _ Bible Criticism & History- Forum.

stephan huller

Accusing a Jew of promoting/embracing Nazism isn't generally a good idea.

Sheshbazzar

As Transient said, We obviously lead, and have for a lifetime led -very- different lifestyles.
A simple apology would be much better.

Or if you felt an apology unwarranted, the simple provision of the link along with the posted picture, without which, anyone totally unfamiliar with the source can only interpret the intent of the caricature by the context in which it appears, -which in this case, by your offer, 'Lets be friends',-
shows that you were well aware of a context mutual of frustration and tension if not animosity, arising out of our quite divergent viewpoints.

As an Hebrew, I also am naturally quite sensitive to any perceived racial slights. The kinds of things that begin with small 'harmless' things, and escalate from there;
'Never again!' can only be maintained by remaining constantly on the defensive, ready and willing to stand and say; 'Don't tread here!'

You mention '..dating yourself', I do not know your age, I do not see it revealed in your profile, perhaps I'm old enough to be your father, or grandfathers age?


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Transient

There is only one person who is continually making provocative remarks in this thread.
It is a pity because, as I have said about Pete, a wide range of viewpoints is very useful when dealing with these issues.
It does not matter whether a person considers themselves highly skilled in the field or not, acting in a nice and civil manner is very important to getting one's ideas across and also in maintaining harmony here.
Maybe when someone gets so involved in a subject they start to consider themselves above everyone else and then get frustrated with their so-called "ignorance". It seems to happen in all walks of life and never seems to have a happy ending.
Stephan - your input here in this forum is very valuable and we would like it to continue. Please just be less provocative and tolerant of differing viewpoints.
I know Pete's theory seems way out there. Maybe it is better just to state clearly your thoughts on whatever a thread is about and then leave it at that rather than trying to belittle anyone who doesn't seem to agree with you.
You have obviously put a great deal of time and energy into your research so you should be able to relax in the strength of your own arguments and gracefully accept those who may tend to disagree with you - who knows, in time many of those may come to realize that you are correct.

maryhelena

101 on human interaction....

Do not knock people to the ground with words of disdain, belittlement, sarcasm and mockery and expect them to get up from the ground, unaided, and accept your hand of friendship. Begin with the heartfelt apology - hope that your sincerity is believed - offer some uplifting words to those knocked down - and wait for the hand of friendship to be offered to you as an acceptance of your sincerity.

Do not presume that an offer of friendship - of love - is sufficient to uplift those one has knocked down to the gutter...(that my dear boy is the siren song of every abuser under the sun....)

Stephan - your great, you really are - you just need to see the humanity, and thus the inherent dignity, of others a little clearer. :wave:

stephan huller

If I was looking for mere companionship I'd have joined Adult Friend Finder.

I actually come here to have my ideas criticized and learn new things. I don't attack all the ideas I come up across at this site that I don't agree with. Yet the idea that we should all hold hands and encourage outlandish propositions like a fourth century conspiracy was responsible for inventing Christianity from scratch is like watching someone skin a cat in front of view. Yes, there is toleration and friendliness but then there is having to watch a cat get skinned alive.

I would counter that those who promote toleration are really not that interested in finding the truth. The object of their inquiry is really to embarass and ridicule religion, Christianity, God etc. That's fine and I am not here to defend religion, Christianity, or God. I am utterly indifferent to these concepts as I am neither a religious man nor a Christian. But I am interested in the truth and in my opinion the truth is unlikely to be found in the most outlandish explanation to a given phenomenon.

Mani was exactly who ALL the ancient sources say he was - a guy who claimed to be the Paraclete of Jesus. I don't believe in Mani. I believe that finding out the truth is important and I am absolutely certain that you won't find the truth by just brushing Mani, Manichaeanism and the Marcionite environment in Osrhoene to the side to make way for an unworkable fourth century conspiracy theory.

Not a single one of you has come up with a coherent argument to explain any part of this half-hearted attempt to rescue Pete's theory in the face of something he completely forgot to consider - the Christian world OUTSIDE of the Roman Empire.

There has been no coherent explanation WHY Manichaeans would have abandoned Mani's alleged original un-Chrisitan faith.

There has no coherent argument for WHEN this alleged transformation took place.

Nor has there been any attempt at even thinking through why even if this implausible transformation took place IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE why those living outside the Roman Empire - Ephrem, the supposed un-Christian believers of the original faith of Mani - wouldn't have called them out on thisir abandoning the true beliefs of the religion.

This hypothesis is so unworkable and so half-baked and not properly thought out that it only demonstrates how little you care for the truth.

Not caring for the truth is fine. The world is filled with people who don't care about the truth. Just don't try and pass yourselves off as scholars engaging in objective research. How can people subscribe to a theory that hasn't even been formulated. I say again that no one has even laid out a coherent argument for how, when and why of the claim that Mani was originally 'un-Christian' but his followers all embraced Jesus and claimed Mani was the Paraclete of Jesus. The fact that you don't challenge the absurdity of this proposition is because you again don't care.
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stephan huller

Thanks for the tips on how to make friends and influence people. As I said the more this site tolerates idiotic ideas (I am not in any way singling anyone out just speaking in generalities here) the less people that I would care to interact with would want to come to this board and the more people inclined towards idiotic ideas would be attracted to the site.

As such I do all I do for the sake of the integrity of the board - and selfishly - my continued interaction with people I actually respect at this board.

maryhelena

Stephan - it is not the argument that you are making that is at issue here - it is your manner, your attitude of belittling anyone who does not fall down at your feet. You miss the point of this particularly thread completely. Sad, you make me want to cry.....
:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::c rying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

Transient

All of that is irrelevant to the fact that you abuse and insult instead of just being happy to present your case.
You would much more professional if you stuck to the discussion without trying to belittle your opposition.
It does not matter whether you are engaging with world renowned scholars or people who little knowledge of the subject, you could still be kind and generous.
I feel I am wasting my time saying all of this tho because from my 60 years experience with people it seems that most times people are just unwilling to change or to admit any kind of mistake.
There are some people in this world who can be generous, kind and quick to apologize - I have met some. I am not sure tho why it is that some choose to be like that and others choose to be the opposite.

maryhelena

Me too - I don't want to see this forum go the way that Dawkins forums went - being hijacked by a bully boy who would give no slack to those he disagreed with - thus impacting on the enjoyment of others who want to participate.

For heavens sake - don't think it all rests with you. The forum has moderators and a policy to uphold. It got on fine before you arrived here - and will continue to do so without you trying to be it's 'savior', its knight in shinning armor. Lighten up, Stephan - don't get caught up with notions of 'truth' - for 'truth' will laugh at you.

Enjoy the journey but never think for one moment that 'truth' will let you grasp it's tail.....All it wants is for one to undertake that journey, to keep the mind running smoothly -

Now that's an interesting analogy - 'truth' as the 'heartbeat' of the mind....my, one learns something new everyday....