Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 01-21-2013, 07:41 PM

Until you provide some, I have to assume that you have no evidence for your assertion that he tried to swindle millions for fake articles. It seems you have allowed your emotions guide your judgement. When was he convicted of such swindling, outhouse? No evidence? Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me...

outhouse · 01-21-2013, 07:57 PM

Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license.

More on this criminal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_Inscription

Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution.

This is Golan cutting deals to save his own criminal skin

Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

TedM · 01-21-2013, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license.

Where's the 'millions' you claim? He didn't even have to serve time, outhouse, so without more detail it sounds to me like these were very minor infractions that perhaps anybody with a huge collection like his might have been guilty of..

Quote:

Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution.

If you thought you were the victim of a witchhunt, and you believed you could get a good deal, would you?

Quote:

Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

Leaks to media by guess who? May or may not be true.. If he really had a forgery lab as extensive as they claimed, why is it that he wasn't put behind bars for 20 years, outhouse?

I"m playing devil's advocate here. Many things don't add up very well..on both sides..

TedM · 01-21-2013, 09:56 PM

Interesting article in Free Ebook from BAR:

Quote:

The Ultimate Test of Authenticity
By Hershel Shanks

Sidebar to: Burial Box of James the Brother of Jesus

To forge the James inscription, a forger would need to be able to imitate Aramaic letter forms of the first century C.E. and also to avoid any errors in first-century Aramaic usage. Before publishing the inscription, we showed it to Father Joseph Fitzmyer, formerly of the Catholic University of America and one of the world’s leading experts in first-century Aramaic and
a pre-eminent Dead Sea Scroll editor (he edited a number of the Aramaic texts among the scrolls). Father Fitzmyer was troubled by the spelling in the James inscription of the word for “brother;” it is spelled aleph, het, waw and yod. In Hebrew it is spelled simply aleph het. Only after hundreds of years would the spelling on the James inscription appear in Aramaic, and then it
would be plural, not singular.

However, after doing some research, Father Fitzmyer found the same spelling of “brother” in the Dead Sea Scroll known as the Genesis Apocryphon. In addition, he found another example in which the same form appeared—in an ossuary inscription in which the deceased was identified as someone’s brother, just as James is here. “I stand corrected,” said Father Fitzmyer.
Either a putative forger had to know first-century Aramaic better than Father Fitzmyer or the inscription is authentic.

To my mind this is one of the strongest arguments for the authenticity of the James inscription.

andrewcriddle · 01-22-2013, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Interesting article in Free Ebook from BAR:

Quote:

The Ultimate Test of Authenticity
By Hershel Shanks

Sidebar to: Burial Box of James the Brother of Jesus

To forge the James inscription, a forger would need to be able to imitate Aramaic letter forms of the first century C.E. and also to avoid any errors in first-century Aramaic usage. Before publishing the inscription, we showed it to Father Joseph Fitzmyer, formerly of the Catholic University of America and one of the world’s leading experts in first-century Aramaic and
a pre-eminent Dead Sea Scroll editor (he edited a number of the Aramaic texts among the scrolls). Father Fitzmyer was troubled by the spelling in the James inscription of the word for “brother;” it is spelled aleph, het, waw and yod. In Hebrew it is spelled simply aleph het. Only after hundreds of years would the spelling on the James inscription appear in Aramaic, and then it
would be plural, not singular.

However, after doing some research, Father Fitzmyer found the same spelling of “brother” in the Dead Sea Scroll known as the Genesis Apocryphon. In addition, he found another example in which the same form appeared—in an ossuary inscription in which the deceased was identified as someone’s brother, just as James is here. “I stand corrected,” said Father Fitzmyer.
Either a putative forger had to know first-century Aramaic better than Father Fitzmyer or the inscription is authentic.

To my mind this is one of the strongest arguments for the authenticity of the James inscription.

I don't think it is strong evidence for authenticity, IIUC we have what is at face value a late form but for which some ancient examples exist. It is quite possible that the forger carelessly used a late form but got lucky because there are examples of this mostly late usage in the early period.

Andrew Criddle

TedM · 01-22-2013, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I don't think it is strong evidence for authenticity, IIUC we have what is at face value a late form but for which some ancient examples exist. It is quite possible that the forger carelessly used a late form but got lucky because there are examples of this mostly late usage in the early period.

Andrew Criddle

It isn't clear to me that the version on there is a common late form since Shanks says the late form would be plural and not singular.. The forgerer could also have been careless by assuming a singular use and modifying the plural he was seeing in later Aramaic. But how likely is that? Is it as easy as removing an 's' in English?

TedM · 01-26-2013, 11:35 AM

Theory number 3 -- not nearly as much of a conspiracy theory:

The IAA wanted to take Golan down and the best way to do that was to disparage the authenticity of the ossuary and other items.

FACTS:
1. The IAA despises the sale of unprovenanced artifacts.

2. Golan's collection was immense, highly impressive, and almost exclusive obtained through sales of unprovenanced items through antique stores

3. The IAA was FURIOUS that Golan introduced the James ossuary to the world before the IAA even knew what it was claimed to be

There's the motive for the IAA to take Golan down. There's the explanation for why the IAA was behind the police raid. There's the explanation for why the IAA scientists uniformly rejected the authenticity of the ossuary, in opposition to MANY outside scientists, including those of the Israeli Geological Survey.

And yet, what happened to the 'open and shut' case against Golan, as ringleader of an international operation to forge artifacts, and the charges of forgery against specific items?

1. No 'ring of forgery' was exposed. The one person who was charged along with Golan and convicted, was convicted of charges UNRELATED to Golan.

2. Golan was completely acquitted of all forgery charges.

3. The IAA's leading scientist was shown and verified evidence of ancient patina within the 'Jesus' portion of the ossuary

4. Multiple IAA scientists indicated they 'went along' with the IAA opinion without having done their own research. One of them has since renounced his vote for inauthenticity

5. The judge ruled against forgery of the ossuary and other items presented, but was unable to say one way or the other after having heard many conflicting opinions within the 'scientific' community.

Might the truth be that the IAA let their hatred for the profession in which Golan had participated and excelled in -- at the IAA's tremendous loss -- motivate them to unfairly act against Golan, and unfairly judge the authenticity of the ossuary? Might they have been strongly driven to make Mr Golan a 'poster boy' for all that was wrong with the Israeli antiques market? Sure sounds possible.

Oded Golan:
He allegedly has the largest and best collection of ancient Israeli artifacts in the entire world.

He has been collecting for over 40 years, since he was a child (who at age 10 discovered a portion of the worlds oldest dictionary).

He founded successful businesses in travel, architectural seminars and educational software. He is also an accomplished photographer and plays concert-level classical piano. He comes from a wealthy family, his father owning a successful Israeli insurance company.

It is difficult to see a monetary motive that would threaten to destroy the value and credibility of his own massive collection. It is difficult to imagine that a man this gifted would stoop to USING his OWN MOTHER--who was still living--to perpetuate the lie (ie he says she cleaned the ossuary when he still lived at home).

There are serious reports that DO point a suspicious finger at Mr Golan that need to be answered more clearly, but there ARE reasonable arguments that cause me to pause when tempted to buy into the 'party line'.

outhouse · 01-26-2013, 12:29 PM

This isnt mythology, the man is a convicted crook with a forging lab

Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license.

More on this criminal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_Inscription

Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution.

This is Golan cutting deals to save his own criminal skin

Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

TedM · 01-26-2013, 12:37 PM

Outhouse, why don't you interact with my post instead of re-posting the same material over an over--which contributes nothing new? The IAA CLEARLY was not unbiased! Why don't you address the implications of that FACT?

I've outed your misleading posts and statements about the guy already, saying he was previously convicted and had swindled 'millions'. COMPLETELY FALSE. It is clear you believe he is a crook, and as do many. I can appreciate that. And there are the damning reports by the media.

BUT there was also clear evidence of a hatchet job, so the REAL truth about the man is NOT clear at all. Think about it: The man's LIFE was collecting artifacts. Is it any wonder that he would have tools, soils, computer files etc that relate to it? Is it really a stretch to postulate that the IAA saw what they wanted to see? Are we really to believe the IAA is right when they say they would have WON had they had one more witness, even though there were well over 100?

Find me the trial testimony with regard to all the finds related to the 'forgery lab' and the 'international ring', and then we can talk further. Until then please stop posting the same crap. It makes you look suspiciously driven by your own anti-antique dealers agenda..

Toto · 01-26-2013, 12:49 PM

Everyone calm down.

outhouse - please don't just post the same material.

TedM - I think the material discovered in Golan's workshop was more than just tools for restoring antiques, and Golan benefited from some high powered lawyering.

There is no need to keep rehashing these points. There is an enormous amount of material on the web and in books on this trial, but the trial transcripts are probably in Hebrew.

For background, you might want to look at Nina Burleigh's Unholy Business: A True Tale of Faith, Greed and Forgery in the Holy Land (or via: amazon.co.uk)

I suggest that no one post again in this thread until there is something new to say.

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01-21-2013, 07:41 PM	#41
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Until you provide some, I have to assume that you have no evidence for your assertion that he tried to swindle millions for fake articles. It seems you have allowed your emotions guide your judgement. When was he convicted of such swindling, outhouse? No evidence? Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me...

01-21-2013, 07:57 PM	#42
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license. More on this criminal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_Inscription Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution. This is Golan cutting deals to save his own criminal skin Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

01-26-2013, 11:35 AM	#47
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Theory number 3 -- not nearly as much of a conspiracy theory: The IAA wanted to take Golan down and the best way to do that was to disparage the authenticity of the ossuary and other items. FACTS: 1. The IAA despises the sale of unprovenanced artifacts. 2. Golan's collection was immense, highly impressive, and almost exclusive obtained through sales of unprovenanced items through antique stores 3. The IAA was FURIOUS that Golan introduced the James ossuary to the world before the IAA even knew what it was claimed to be There's the motive for the IAA to take Golan down. There's the explanation for why the IAA was behind the police raid. There's the explanation for why the IAA scientists uniformly rejected the authenticity of the ossuary, in opposition to MANY outside scientists, including those of the Israeli Geological Survey. And yet, what happened to the 'open and shut' case against Golan, as ringleader of an international operation to forge artifacts, and the charges of forgery against specific items? 1. No 'ring of forgery' was exposed. The one person who was charged along with Golan and convicted, was convicted of charges UNRELATED to Golan. 2. Golan was completely acquitted of all forgery charges. 3. The IAA's leading scientist was shown and verified evidence of ancient patina within the 'Jesus' portion of the ossuary 4. Multiple IAA scientists indicated they 'went along' with the IAA opinion without having done their own research. One of them has since renounced his vote for inauthenticity 5. The judge ruled against forgery of the ossuary and other items presented, but was unable to say one way or the other after having heard many conflicting opinions within the 'scientific' community. Might the truth be that the IAA let their hatred for the profession in which Golan had participated and excelled in -- at the IAA's tremendous loss -- motivate them to unfairly act against Golan, and unfairly judge the authenticity of the ossuary? Might they have been strongly driven to make Mr Golan a 'poster boy' for all that was wrong with the Israeli antiques market? Sure sounds possible. Oded Golan: He allegedly has the largest and best collection of ancient Israeli artifacts in the entire world. He has been collecting for over 40 years, since he was a child (who at age 10 discovered a portion of the worlds oldest dictionary). He founded successful businesses in travel, architectural seminars and educational software. He is also an accomplished photographer and plays concert-level classical piano. He comes from a wealthy family, his father owning a successful Israeli insurance company. It is difficult to see a monetary motive that would threaten to destroy the value and credibility of his own massive collection. It is difficult to imagine that a man this gifted would stoop to USING his OWN MOTHER--who was still living--to perpetuate the lie (ie he says she cleaned the ossuary when he still lived at home). There are serious reports that DO point a suspicious finger at Mr Golan that need to be answered more clearly, but there ARE reasonable arguments that cause me to pause when tempted to buy into the 'party line'.

01-26-2013, 12:29 PM	#48
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	This isnt mythology, the man is a convicted crook with a forging lab Golan was convicted Wednesday on four other charges, including trading unlicensed antiquities, possessing stolen artifacts and selling artifacts without a license. More on this criminal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_Inscription Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the location of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution. This is Golan cutting deals to save his own criminal skin Then police then conducted a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not originally disclosed to them. There the police found scores of artifacts, ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production along with the tools to create the imitations. Under harsh questioning, Golan admitted that he knew about the Jehoash Inscription and promised to hand it over.

01-26-2013, 12:37 PM	#49
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Outhouse, why don't you interact with my post instead of re-posting the same material over an over--which contributes nothing new? The IAA CLEARLY was not unbiased! Why don't you address the implications of that FACT? I've outed your misleading posts and statements about the guy already, saying he was previously convicted and had swindled 'millions'. COMPLETELY FALSE. It is clear you believe he is a crook, and as do many. I can appreciate that. And there are the damning reports by the media. BUT there was also clear evidence of a hatchet job, so the REAL truth about the man is NOT clear at all. Think about it: The man's LIFE was collecting artifacts. Is it any wonder that he would have tools, soils, computer files etc that relate to it? Is it really a stretch to postulate that the IAA saw what they wanted to see? Are we really to believe the IAA is right when they say they would have WON had they had one more witness, even though there were well over 100? Find me the trial testimony with regard to all the finds related to the 'forgery lab' and the 'international ring', and then we can talk further. Until then please stop posting the same crap. It makes you look suspiciously driven by your own anti-antique dealers agenda..

01-26-2013, 12:49 PM	#50
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Everyone calm down. outhouse - please don't just post the same material. TedM - I think the material discovered in Golan's workshop was more than just tools for restoring antiques, and Golan benefited from some high powered lawyering. There is no need to keep rehashing these points. There is an enormous amount of material on the web and in books on this trial, but the trial transcripts are probably in Hebrew. For background, you might want to look at Nina Burleigh's Unholy Business: A True Tale of Faith, Greed and Forgery in the Holy Land (or via: amazon.co.uk) I suggest that no one post again in this thread until there is something new to say.

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