sschlichter

The message of Paul's voice was confirmed by the apostles.


-Josephus 93 AD (not an eyewitness but certainly not a follower)

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned

Clement, bishop of Rome (AD 88-97), to the Corinthians mentions the suffering and martyrdom of Peter and Paul in Rome.

Ignatius, Polycarp, Papias, Barnabas.

Do you need eye-witnesses of the persecution of those that followed them for the next 300 years?

www.christianhistoryproject.com

Matthew, Mark, John, the twelve, Mary, disciples, Luke, and Paul.

James Brown

This is not correct. Here is a link written by a Mormon apologist answering criticisms against the LDS church. It's interesting to me that the language used by Mormon apologists mirrors that of Christian apologists:

Because of all the eyewitness testimony, perhaps? And not like the Bible's "So-and-so told me he saw such-and-such," but sworn testimony, written in first person, and signed by the eyewitnesses themselves, some of whom suffered persecution for their faith.

Today there are 13 million Mormons in the world after less than 180 years; surely there must be something to it.

Huon

Ignatius of Antioch, born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117. At best, witness of witness.

The oldest collection of the writings of St. Ignatius known to have existed was that made use of by Eusebius in the first half of the fourth century, but which is no longer extant.

The oldest of the later collections is known as the "long recension". This collection dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its otherwise unknown author.

Polycarp, martyr (69-155). At best, witness of witness.


Papias (100-150), bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia.

Papias says: "But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from the elders and carefully remembered, guaranteeing their truth. For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those that speak much, but in those that teach the truth; not in those that relate strange commandments, but in those that deliver the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and springing from the truth itself.

4. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders—what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice."

Papias is a witness of the followers of the elders.

Barnabas ?

The so-called "Epistle of Barnabas" is dated after the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, and before the Bar Kochba revolt in 132 CE. The companion of Paul was most likely not the author of the Epistle of Barnabas, given its date of composition and hostility toward Mosaic law.

bacht

No

Here's my list of witnesses:

"James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars", Syrians in Damascus and Antioch, Paul [Galatians 1-2]

Others unnamed: "the 12", over 500 other Judeans [1 Corinthians 15]

What did they witness? visions of the coming Son of God [2 Peter 1, 2 Corinthians 12, 1 John 1]

Toto

After the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, a dissident faction of Jewish messianists created a new variation on Judaism. They combed through the Septuagint to try to make sense of what happened, and they wrote a story in which Jesus represented the Jewish nation. There was no Christianity before this, no apostles, Paul was a Jewish preacher, and his letters were rewritten to make vague references to a savior born of a woman. This new religion appealed to the God fearers and diaspora Jews, because it dropped the food requirements and the circumcision requirements. Roman persecution was sporadic, just enough to create some in-group solidarity, but not efficient enough to destroy the church.

This is only one of many possibilities that makes more sense of Christian history than the orthodox version.

thentian

Keep in mind that I'm an atheist, ssclichter. I don't believe the claims of the Qur'an any more than I believe the claims of the bible. I only wanted to show you that other religions also claim miracles as proof of correctness. If you want to quarrel about this or other alleged muslim miracles you can do so at an islamist forum. Clearly, your critical faculties work at peak efficiency when evaluating such claims from other religions than your own...

You can tell a tree by it's fruit? Then consider what the millions of dead at the hands of christians says about the tree of christianity.

aa5874

But it is virtually impossible that a human could have a brother who resurrected from the dead after three days. I think you have the wrong James, and/or Jesus Christ, unless you actually believe supernatural beings can have REAL human brothers, sisters and mothers.

bacht

Isn't this passage disputed as being a possible Christian revision ie. not original to Josephus?

andrewcriddle

I meant that "the Jesus Mysteries" is not a reliable source, some at least of the supposed parallels are probably just not true.

Eg can you give me primary sources for the claim that either Osiris or Doinysus died for the sins of the world and rose on the third day ?

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

Aren't you confusing parallels between mythichal figures like Osiris, Dionysus and Jesus with what you seem to be suggesting that mythical figures like Jesus and Osiris or Jesus and Dionysus must be identical in every single mythical aspect or characteristic to be cosidered parallel myths?

It is not necessary for the myths, Jesus and Osiris, or Jesus and Dionysus to be identical to claim that there are parallels, just some fundamental similarities of their mythical characteristics.