Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-06-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Thanks Toto and Amaleq13 for noting that there are some sources that associate Titus and the 'torn/rent/pierced/whatever' veil and that there was at least something vaguely solid to my memory.

So what do we have?
Recorded Jewish legends that associate Titus and the veil.
Based on what and written when?
Historical fact however accounted for?
Legend deriving, or not, from association with Christianity a la " Matthew"?
The reverse, "Matthew' utilising a torn veil from historical fact or embryonic Jewish legend?

Too muddy for me at this stage to attempt to draw any conclusions or even make idle speculation.

It appears that there were two veils. The Jewish legend concerns the inner one, and holds that Titus stabbed it, and blood flew. I don't see any reason to regard this as historical.

Josephus records that Titus took the outer veil as war booty and paraded it through the streets of Rome.

Clivedurdle · 07-06-2009, 11:31 AM

Remember the Jerusalem Temple was the biggest on the planet.

As it has a classic Persian astrological astronomical veil in it - sounds like a wonder of the world got missed - an earthquake tearing it would be seen as very portentous - as I said happened with China.

I must note that Judaism feels like it is far better understood as western zoroastrianism than anything home grown.

Clivedurdle · 07-06-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

As I recall, there is a rabbinic tradition that Titus shredded the Temple veil to symbolize the complete destruction of Jerusalem c.70CE.

The Romans hated the Persians - Crassus for example, and one of their emperors a prisoner till he died.

I have never quite got the hatred of Rome for the Jews, but if they were understood as basically Persians that makes a lot of sense.

bacht · 07-06-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I have never quite got the hatred of Rome for the Jews, but if they were understood as basically Persians that makes a lot of sense.

Was it related to the conflict the Palestinian Jews had with Hellenistic culture? I know there were Jews living around the empire. Did they enjoy special privileges that provoked jealousy from their gentile neighbours?

Clivedurdle · 07-06-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I have never quite got the hatred of Rome for the Jews, but if they were understood as basically Persians that makes a lot of sense.

Was it related to the conflict the Palestinian Jews had with Hellenistic culture? I know there were Jews living aroung the empire. Did they enjoy special privileges that provoked jealousy from their gentile neighbours?

What conflict?

Some zealot nutters had a problem, but most Jews including Palestinian - were pleased to be Greek - like in Alexandria where they translated the Septaguint.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WaU...esult&resnum=1 *

* mod note: link is to Herod's Judaea By Samuel Rocca

bacht · 07-06-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Was it related to the conflict the Palestinian Jews had with Hellenistic culture? I know there were Jews living aroung the empire. Did they enjoy special privileges that provoked jealousy from their gentile neighbours?

What conflict?

Some zealot nutters had a problem, but most Jews including Palestinian - were pleased to be Greek - like in Alexandria where they translated the Septaguint.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WaU...esult&resnum=1

I agree that it may have been a minority in Palestine who resisted Hellenistic culture, but weren't they persistent? From the removal of Onias III thru the Hasmonean and Herodian rulers wasn't there steady opposition from Hasidim/Pharisees/Zealots? Or should we think of this as class conflict between wealthy urbanites and poor rural people?

renassault · 07-06-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Self-Mutation

They were executing and torturing Christians left and right trying to get rid of their religion.

Paul said nothing more specific than that he "persecuted" Christians. That is not confirmation of "executing and torturing." Religions with a persecution complex, which Christianity seems to have had from Day One, will claim you're persecuting them if you just look at them cross-eyed.

So when the churches in Israel received the message "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." (Galatians 1:23) it was because Paul looked at them cross-eyed?

Doug Shaver · 07-07-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Religions with a persecution complex, which Christianity seems to have had from Day One, will claim you're persecuting them if you just look at them cross-eyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by renassault

So when the churches in Israel received the message "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." (Galatians 1:23) it was because Paul looked at them cross-eyed?

You do recognize hyperbole when you see it?

I'm sure he did something worse than look at them cross-eyed. But considering how little it takes to provoke some Christians into claiming persecution, it didn't have to be much worse. More to the point, Paul's testimony definitely does not necessarily imply that he was killing and torturing them.

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07-06-2009, 11:31 AM	#22
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Remember the Jerusalem Temple was the biggest on the planet. As it has a classic Persian astrological astronomical veil in it - sounds like a wonder of the world got missed - an earthquake tearing it would be seen as very portentous - as I said happened with China. I must note that Judaism feels like it is far better understood as western zoroastrianism than anything home grown.

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