Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 02-23-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The fact of all the confusion in Against Heresies on its own merits is enough to show that those parts were written BEFORE the canonical texts emerged, especially since a forger had to give Irenaeus the added fake claim of advocating the four gospels and epistles to cover up all the confusion.
Throw into that pot the confusion of Justin as well. Second century productions? No way.
And a consensus of all scholars just ignores these facts to fit these writings into the traditional dating of church propagandists.

There is NO known chronological confusion in Justin Martyr about the time he claimed Jesus was crucified.

First Apology attributed to Justin Martyr

Quote:

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove....

Justin Martyr's writings are by far the most comprehensive and chronologically sound of virtually all apologetic sources that mentioned a story of Jesus.

There are MASSIVE holes in writings attributed to Irenaeus.

Duvduv · 02-23-2012, 08:49 AM

AA, I wasn't talking about chronological confusion in Justin, I was talking about all the contextual confusion in the so-called two books he wrote. I have already discussed this a few times. But the confusion of Against Heresies + the confusion of Justin = neither complete book is from the 2nd century.

Perhaps someone in Rome in subsequent centuries found parts of each, bits and pieces, in an archive and matched them up with writings of others, or his own writings and presto, we have Against Heresies, Dialogue and the Apology .

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The fact of all the confusion in Against Heresies on its own merits is enough to show that those parts were written BEFORE the canonical texts emerged, especially since a forger had to give Irenaeus the added fake claim of advocating the four gospels and epistles to cover up all the confusion.
Throw into that pot the confusion of Justin as well. Second century productions? No way.
And a consensus of all scholars just ignores these facts to fit these writings into the traditional dating of church propagandists.

There is NO known chronological confusion in Justin Martyr about the time he claimed Jesus was crucified.

First Apology attributed to Justin Martyr

Quote:

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove....

Justin Martyr's writings are by far the most comprehensive and chronologically sound of virtually all apologetic sources that mentioned a story of Jesus.

There are MASSIVE holes in writings attributed to Irenaeus.

Bernard Muller · 02-23-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Irenaeus was supposedly ARGUING against Heretics who stated Jesus was 30 years old when he was crucified.

Where did you read in AH 2.22 "... when he was crucified"??? Evidence please.

Quote:

If the Heretics, and the very Church had knowledge of gLuke, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings then it would have been completely utter nonsense and idiotic for Irenaeus to attempt to argue that Jesus was about 50 years at crucifixion.

How many times I have to tell that never gLuke, Acts, Pauline writings (and any other NT texts) specifically indicated the duration of Jesus' ministry.

Quote:

3. Irenaeus, the Church and Heretics should have known from Acts of the Apostles that James the Apostle was executed by Herod.

And where did you get that: by Herod. Certainly not in Josephus or Hegesippus' versions.
Evidence please

Quote:

4. Irenaeus, the Church and Heretics should have known of the DAY of Pentecost.

Did you read AH 3? Obviously not:
"... all-governing Spirit; " who also, as Luke says, descended at the day of Pentecost upon the disciples after the Lord's ascension, having power to admit all nations to the entrance of life, and to the opening of the new covenant; from whence also, with one accord in all languages, they uttered praise to God, the Spirit bringing distant tribes to unity, and offering to the Father the first-fruits of all nations." (AH 3.17)

Now, according to your line of thinking, I must accept, you never read fully and/or correctly Irenaeus AH (including 2.22), gLuke, Acts, Pauline writings, Josephus' works or Hegesippus surviving texts.

And before you extrapolate from error of others (i.e. Irenaeus), try at least to make less errors yourself.

Duvduv · 02-23-2012, 10:45 AM

Wouldn't "Irenaeus" know that his Jesus of his "four gospels like the four directions" was executed under Pilate who was governor only until approximately 36 CE under the Emperor Tiberius, and the calculation of when his Jesus was born means that Jesus was only ministering for a couple of years??
If "Irenaeus" didn't know, then it is obvious he didn't read his own 4 gospels and make a calculation.

Bernard Muller · 02-23-2012, 11:32 AM

to Duvduv,

Quote:

Wouldn't "Irenaeus" know that his Jesus of his "four gospels like the four directions" was executed under Pilate who was governor only until approximately 36 CE under the Emperor Tiberius, and the calculation of when his Jesus was born means that Jesus was only ministering for a couple of years??
If "Irenaeus" didn't know, then it is obvious he didn't read his own 4 gospels and make a calculation.

Irenaeus knew that Jesus was executed by Pilate.
But he did not know that Pilate was governor only up to (late) 36, when Tiberius was still alive; that info can be extracted from Josephus' works, but NOT from the gospels or Acts or Pauline epistles.
Irenaeus did use gJohn (in AH 2.22) to advocate Jesus' ministry lasted more than one year.
Conclusion: Irenaeus did not know much about Josephus' works.

Before Irenaeus, only "heretics" like Basilides and Valentinus advanced a duration for Jesus' preaching, and that was one year. No orthodox Christians did that, as far as I know. So Irenaeus could rail against "heretics" on this issue without offending orthodox Christians.
Without knowing about pertinent passages of Josephus' works, he felt he had a free hand into developping a theory about Jesus preaching for 20 years (which is much better than a flash in the pan!).
Later many orthodox Christians went back to an one year ministry (including Origen, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian). However Origen, in a late work, changed his mind and proposed a 3 years ministry (and apparently was the first to do so). The next one to do so is, as far as I know, Eusebius. And he does explain it through the book of Daniel!
More details here: http://historical-jesus.info/appb.html

Duvduv · 02-23-2012, 11:39 AM

I fail to understand why "Irenaeus" would not have had access to his own Roman records about the annals of their rulers, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

to Duvduv,

Quote:

Wouldn't "Irenaeus" know that his Jesus of his "four gospels like the four directions" was executed under Pilate who was governor only until approximately 36 CE under the Emperor Tiberius, and the calculation of when his Jesus was born means that Jesus was only ministering for a couple of years??
If "Irenaeus" didn't know, then it is obvious he didn't read his own 4 gospels and make a calculation.

Irenaeus knew that Jesus was executed by Pilate.
But he did not know that Pilate was governor only up to (late) 36, when Tiberius was still alive; that info can be extracted from Josephus' works, but NOT from the gospels or Acts or Pauline epistles.
Irenaeus did use gJohn (in AH 2.22) to advocate Jesus' ministry lasted more than one year.
Conclusion: Irenaeus did not know much about Josephus' works.

Before Irenaeus, only "heretics" like Basilides and Valentinus advanced a duration for Jesus' preaching, and that was one year. No orthodox Christians did that, as far as I know. So Irenaeus could rail against "heretics" on this issue without offending orthodox Christians.
Without knowing about pertinent passages of Josephus' works, he felt he had a free hand into developping a theory about Jesus preaching for 20 years (which is much better than a flash in the pan!).
Later many orthodox Christians went back to an one year ministry (including Origen, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian). However Origen, in a late work, changed his mind and proposed a 3 years ministry (and apparently was the first to do so). The next one to do so is, as far as I know, Eusebius. And he does explain it through the book of Daniel!
More details here: http://historical-jesus.info/appb.html

Bernard Muller · 02-23-2012, 11:57 AM

Duvduv wrote:

Quote:

I fail to understand why "Irenaeus" would not have had access to his own Roman records about the annals of their rulers, etc.

Well Irenaeus was basically an ardent Christian apologist and passionate against "heresies". Why do you think he would be also interested about secular history?

Duvduv · 02-23-2012, 01:05 PM

Because it was relevant to the events of the emergence of his religion......The absence of it shows the author didn't do his homework or research, and/or was confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mullerb

Duvduv wrote:

Quote:

I fail to understand why "Irenaeus" would not have had access to his own Roman records about the annals of their rulers, etc.

Well Irenaeus was basically an ardent Christian apologist and passionate against "heresies". Why do you think he would be also interested about secular history?

AtheistGamer · 02-23-2012, 01:21 PM

Hi aa. Please forgive me if I didn't bother to read past the first page of posts. Anyway it looks to me like Irenaus didn't know how old Jesus was when he died. I don't see how Irenaus could be used as a witness to the authorship of any gospel. I don't think this proves that paul, jesus, etc. were non-existant. Just that Irenaus hadn't read the gospels that we have in our possesion today. Anyway thanks for the interesting information.

Duvduv · 02-23-2012, 01:26 PM

Except that dear old Irenaeus was the guy who was the first to talk about the 4 gospels that are four like the four winds, etc. etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtheistGamer

Hi aa. Please forgive me if I didn't bother to read past the first page of posts. Anyway it looks to me like Irenaus didn't know how old Jesus was when he died. I don't see how Irenaus could be used as a witness to the authorship of any gospel. I don't think this proves that paul, jesus, etc. were non-existant. Just that Irenaus hadn't read the gospels that we have in our possesion today. Anyway thanks for the interesting information.

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02-23-2012, 10:45 AM	#224
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Wouldn't "Irenaeus" know that his Jesus of his "four gospels like the four directions" was executed under Pilate who was governor only until approximately 36 CE under the Emperor Tiberius, and the calculation of when his Jesus was born means that Jesus was only ministering for a couple of years?? If "Irenaeus" didn't know, then it is obvious he didn't read his own 4 gospels and make a calculation.

02-23-2012, 01:21 PM	#229
AtheistGamer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 128	Hi aa. Please forgive me if I didn't bother to read past the first page of posts. Anyway it looks to me like Irenaus didn't know how old Jesus was when he died. I don't see how Irenaus could be used as a witness to the authorship of any gospel. I don't think this proves that paul, jesus, etc. were non-existant. Just that Irenaus hadn't read the gospels that we have in our possesion today. Anyway thanks for the interesting information.

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