Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-23-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Indeed. Considering the author of Acts thought Mary was still alive, and that she was the chosen of God, she sure didn't get much billing in Acts. All of one mention without even extolling the fact that she had been a miraculous virgin. Acts 1:14. One would expect some great praise of this great woman, but instead she's just one of the gang, only the mother of the mere man Jesus, with no praise, nothing.:

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers

One would only expect some great praise of this woman if one were totally confused about early Christianity.

You are importing later Catholic veneration of Mary into the New Testament. But it's not there. Mary was just a young woman, chosen by God as the vessel to bring Jesus into the world, but otherwise of no great importance.

Later Catholics turned Mary into a quasi-goddess; much later Protestants who relied only on scripture objected to this "Mariolatry."

New Advent

Quote:

Mary in the gospels

The reader of the Gospels is at first surprised to find so little about Mary; but this obscurity of Mary in the Gospels has been studied at length by Blessed Peter Canisius [17], Auguste Nicolas [18], Cardinal Newman [19], and Very Rev. J. Spencer Northcote [20]. In the commentary on the "Magnificat", published 1518, even Luther expresses the belief that the Gospels praise Mary sufficiently by calling her (eight times) the Mother of Jesus. ...

This is not the first time this point has been raised. Please do not keep repeating your claim that "One would expect some great praise of this great woman" without at least responding to it.

Toto · 01-23-2012, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And Peter tells us that Jesus is from Nazareth but we know that too. Did the writer of Acts think we'd confuse him with Jesus of Athens?! And it wouldn't make any difference to his audience whether he was from Nazareth or Haifa.

Jesus was known as Jesus the Nazarene or Jesus of Nazareth. Nazareth was an important part of how he was identified, and his followers were at times referred to as Nazarenes. Mary was not referred to as the "Virgin Mary" until later Christian history.

Duvduv · 01-23-2012, 08:45 AM

You mean the speech of Peter would have left everyone confused without Nazareth? How many times is Nazareth used with Jesus? Paul was known as Paul of Tarsus, but it's clear who he is without his hometown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And Peter tells us that Jesus is from Nazareth but we know that too. Did the writer of Acts think we'd confuse him with Jesus of Athens?! And it wouldn't make any difference to his audience whether he was from Nazareth or Haifa.

Jesus was known as Jesus the Nazarene or Jesus of Nazareth. Nazareth was an important part of how he was identified, and his followers were at times referred to as Nazarenes. Mary was not referred to as the "Virgin Mary" until later Christian history.

sotto voce · 01-23-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And Peter tells us that Jesus is from Nazareth but we know that too. Did the writer of Acts think we'd confuse him with Jesus of Athens?! And it wouldn't make any difference to his audience whether he was from Nazareth or Haifa.

Jesus was known as Jesus the Nazarene or Jesus of Nazareth. Nazareth was an important part of how he was identified, and his followers were at times referred to as Nazarenes. Mary was not referred to as the "Virgin Mary" until later Christian history.

Until later pagan history.

Duvduv · 01-23-2012, 08:47 AM

Besides the introduction of Acts from "Luke" who supposedly was the author of the gospel we have the Gospel of Peter.
Written in the first person the Gospel of Peter alleges it was written by Peter, does that mean it's so?
As written in the first person in the Gospel of Peter:

"And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:" — GoP, 7.
"But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;" — GoP, 14.

Speaking of the Gospel of Peter, how did Herod get so involved in the story?

Duvduv · 01-23-2012, 09:01 AM

Forget about iconic veneration. I am simply noting that the woman who was spoken to by an angel of God who gave birth miraculously as a virgin is mentioned a mere one time in the entire book of Acts and in that one time is just plain Mary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Indeed. Considering the author of Acts thought Mary was still alive, and that she was the chosen of God, she sure didn't get much billing in Acts. All of one mention without even extolling the fact that she had been a miraculous virgin. Acts 1:14. One would expect some great praise of this great woman, but instead she's just one of the gang, only the mother of the mere man Jesus, with no praise, nothing.:

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers

One would only expect some great praise of this woman if one were totally confused about early Christianity.

You are importing later Catholic veneration of Mary into the New Testament. But it's not there. Mary was just a young woman, chosen by God as the vessel to bring Jesus into the world, but otherwise of no great importance.

Later Catholics turned Mary into a quasi-goddess; much later Protestants who relied only on scripture objected to this "Mariolatry."

New Advent

Quote:

Mary in the gospels

The reader of the Gospels is at first surprised to find so little about Mary; but this obscurity of Mary in the Gospels has been studied at length by Blessed Peter Canisius [17], Auguste Nicolas [18], Cardinal Newman [19], and Very Rev. J. Spencer Northcote [20]. In the commentary on the "Magnificat", published 1518, even Luther expresses the belief that the Gospels praise Mary sufficiently by calling her (eight times) the Mother of Jesus. ...

This is not the first time this point has been raised. Please do not keep repeating your claim that "One would expect some great praise of this great woman" without at least responding to it.

Toto · 01-23-2012, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Forget about iconic veneration. I am simply noting that the woman who was spoken to by an angel of God who gave birth miraculously as a virgin is mentioned a mere one time in the entire book of Acts and in that one time is just plain Mary.

No, look it up. Acts 1:14 refers to "Mary the mother of Jesus." This is the only way she is ever referred to in the gospels. Stop repeating your point without responding to my documented points about Mary's status in the gospels.

Remember that angels spoke to a lot of people in the Bible, and there is more than one "miraculous" birth.

And "iconic veneration" is something you just made up. There is nothing here about icons. Icons are used in Eastern Orthodox churches, not Roman Catholicism.

Toto · 01-23-2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

You mean the speech of Peter would have left everyone confused without Nazareth? How many times is Nazareth used with Jesus? Paul was known as Paul of Tarsus, but it's clear who he is without his hometown.

Nazareth is commonly used with Jesus (Jesus was a common name, so there was a need to distinguish him.) You will not find the phrase "Virgin Mary" in the gospels, only Mary the mother of Jesus.

It is totally unclear who Paul was outside of letters claimed to have been written by him.

Toto · 01-23-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Besides the introduction of Acts from "Luke" who supposedly was the author of the gospel we have the Gospel of Peter.
Written in the first person the Gospel of Peter alleges it was written by Peter, does that mean it's so?

Of course not. And what does this have to do with the Book of Acts?

Quote:

As written in the first person in the Gospel of Peter:

"And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:" — GoP, 7.
"But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;" — GoP, 14.

Speaking of the Gospel of Peter, how did Herod get so involved in the story?

There are various theories.

But do you have ADD? Your questions are unfocused and you don't seem to be paying attention.

Duvduv · 01-23-2012, 09:41 AM

The "fact" of Acts having been written by the author of GLuke revolves around that sentence in the first chapter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Besides the introduction of Acts from "Luke" who supposedly was the author of the gospel we have the Gospel of Peter.
Written in the first person the Gospel of Peter alleges it was written by Peter, does that mean it's so?

Of course not. And what does this have to do with the Book of Acts?

Quote:

As written in the first person in the Gospel of Peter:

"And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:" — GoP, 7.
"But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;" — GoP, 14.

Speaking of the Gospel of Peter, how did Herod get so involved in the story?

There are various theories.

But do you have ADD? Your questions are unfocused and you don't seem to be paying attention.

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01-23-2012, 08:47 AM	#95
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Besides the introduction of Acts from "Luke" who supposedly was the author of the gospel we have the Gospel of Peter. Written in the first person the Gospel of Peter alleges it was written by Peter, does that mean it's so? As written in the first person in the Gospel of Peter: "And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:" — GoP, 7. "But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;" — GoP, 14. Speaking of the Gospel of Peter, how did Herod get so involved in the story?

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