show_no_mercy

It probably goes a lot further back than Ezra. Think about all of the Asherah bashing in the Tanakh - that was originally YHWH's wife! The concept of monotheism was probably the Persian influence on Judaism, not something original to the Israelites/Judahites. That lasted a good 200 years until the Greeks came into the picture and we wind up back to near polytheism with Jesus Sirach, Philo, Proverbs, etc.

Greek influence was probably always at the doorstep of the Jewish religion - the Philistines might have originally been Greeks. In the end, their "promised land" was renamed to honor the Philistines (Palestine) and their scripture was hijacked by Greeks (Christianity).

stephan huller

I would take it one step further. The Jews never really worship a single monotheistic divinity - 'the Creator' - the way Christians imagine. To make it simple for everyone to understand. The synagogue prayer service is built around the Shema and Shemoneh Esrei prayers. During the Shemoneh Esrei, from the beginning of the silent portion until after the Kedushah during the reader's repetition (Kedushah is the part that includes the "Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh" (Holy, Holy, Holy) blessing). The Christians continued this and called it the Trisagion. But our informed Jewish sources (not the regular people who just go to temple as a social thing) ALWAYS know that the three recitations of 'kadosh' lead back to three hypostases. Who started the imbecilic notion that Jews were 'strict' monotheists? Probably Jews, but that's another story ...

Oh yeah, I forgot that Europeans like to point to things that people say and assume they aren't lying. Obviously they have never dealt with people from that part of the world where no believes what anyone else is saying.

How do these Europeans read Philo? I don't mean his references to hypostases. Just on the level of whether he is telling the truth all the time. Oh he's a 'priest' - a priest like those you meet when you go to Church (my wife is Catholic so I end up going some times), so solemn they have to appear. Solemn like they imagine the Jewish Patriarchs to have been. Who are these people? Have they ever met my uncle Gert? God save us. People would stop believing in the Jewish religion if they really got acquainted with Jewish families and family members.

With regards to Philo haven't they realized that there are always two sides to a story. How is it that when Philo describes the events of Flaccus's downfall or the Embassy to Gaius that they just read the account and say 'well, it must be exactly as Philo says it is.'

Oh I forgot, the Europeans have been practicing reading 'the Bible' as a one-dimensional document for thousands of years. Who are these people? Let's face it Abraham is a liar. Isaac is a sneak and thief. Isaac's family is more dysfunctional than the Kardashians. Celsus brings this up and he's right. It's right there in black and white. But we all go along with Origen's defense anyway because he's 'our guy.'

What's the matter with these people? Why do they have to read AND THEN BELIEVE, read AND THEN BELIEVE. You don't see Jews arguing the world is 6000 year old.

A side story and then I'll go. I went to Northwestern University here in Kirkland, just outside of Seattle where I live. The sign says 'University' so like a stupid idiot I think it is a real school. Worldcat said it had a book I was looking for. I took my son with me. The librarian also told me that they had kids books. My son wants a dinosaur book. I get about five and everyone one turns out to explain how Noah's flood killed the dinosaurs.

I go back to the librarian and I ask who owns the university. 'The Assembly of God' or something like that.

My point is that you wouldn't find Jews developing books like this. That doesn't mean that they don' do stupid things on their own. But they don't have the need to 'reconcile' everything to conform to our mundane sense of historical reality.

The Torah is holy but that doesn't mean that everything should be taken literally. In the same way, the Jews were never monotheists in the way the Church Fathers have brainwashed everyone into believing - i.e. saying 'Creator, you are our only God.' Who are these people?

maryhelena

Love this quote from Fiddler on the Roof:

Tevye: I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?

Great sense of humor....

stephan huller

I'm not so sure he chose the Jews in the first place. I have a Samaritan friend. You want to see tsuris. See how the Samaritans were treated throughout history. Worse than the Jews by a million, zillion times. As bad as European rule was it was better than Islamic chaos. Poor Samaritans.

spin

And the same to you.

Here is where the discussion is coming from. TedM dropped this sweeping generalization: "the Jews were desperate .. for a Messiah" and I rightfully complained about it.

But would you think that it was a reasonable statement to be made by a scholar?

You don't seem to be following.

If you must.

Just to please you here, I know what both Vermes and Goodman are capable of. The former I now fundamentally avoid. I don't really know Goodman outside his stuff regarding Qumran (an Essene hypothesis sustainer). I don't understand why Fergus Miller was involved in the reworking. Nor Matthew Black, who is a philologist, who you would trust in commentaries on Romans for example.

I don't mind Schuerer. I simply pointed out that your source was fundamentally old (so it has limitations) -- and the reworking is a conservative effort.

Umm, thanks for that edification. It does not change the fact that Charles was writing nearly a century ago and a lot of new information and practice has come along. Jesus this is not rocket science there, DCH. You don't really quote a writer of a century ago in scholarly circles unless there is good reason.

I've got the volumes along with a revised Charles (Sparks) and various other collections. I have no trouble using OTP, but I do have trouble with the conservative crud that Charlesworth writes.

Umm, this seems to be a tangent on a tangent.

A passing familiarity with old scholarly opinion is all fine and well, but I wanted to get to the meat. And I've still got none yet. If you want to call the desire to have substance rather than opinions "scoffing", then I ain't gonna be able to communicate with you.


spin

Joan of Bark

"These people" have either never read the Torah or are desperate for any piece of evidence to prop up their monotheistic world view. YHWH makes constant reference to other Gods in the Torah. As late as 2 Chronicles 2:5 we get Solomon saying:

arnoldo

Josephus writes about several false messiahs in the early first century. Strangely, some of the people Josephus mentions is also mentioned in the Book of Acts.

aa5874

But, that is expected once the author of Acts used the writings of Josephus to fabricate his Acts of the Apostles.

aa5874

Upon re-examining "Antiquities of the Jews" 20.5.1, Wars of the Jews 2.4.1 and Acts 5.36-37 with respect to "Theudas" and "Judas" it appears that the author of Acts made a serious blunder.

JUDAS was BEFORE Theudas based on Josephus.

Judas was in the time of the taxing or sometime around the time of Cyrenius or c6 CE, and Theudas was at the time of FADUS procurator of Judea or c 42-44 CE.

"Antiquities of the Jews" 20.5.2 "Antiquities of the Jews" 20.5.1Acts 5:36-37 Again, we see an author of the NT produce misleading or contradictory information when compared to Josephus. This may be an indication that Acts of the Apostles was written well AFTER the writings of Josephus and very long after the events.