Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James Brown · 02-20-2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Was it their intention to unwrap Jesus' corpse, apply more spice, and then rewrap Jesus' corpse? Remember, Mary Magdalene was present when Joseph of Arimathea, and Nicodemus, originally spiced up Jesus' corpse. Wasn't 100 pounds of spice enough? Doesn't it seem far-fetched for the women to unwrap, spice, and rewrap, after the corpse already was bloated with 100 pounds of spice?
Or was this just a literary device to have someone go to the tomb and discover the empty tomb, revealing that this story is just a masterpiece of fiction?

I find the following verses very interesting:

Mark 16:2-3:

Quote:

2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"

That they are wondering who would open the tomb demonstrates that they themselves could not do the job. So these women got up early, packed up the spices and walked to the tomb, all the while fully intending to find the tomb sealed up. And then, what? Walk back home, I suppose.

stuart shepherd · 02-20-2008, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Was it their intention to unwrap Jesus' corpse, apply more spice, and then rewrap Jesus' corpse? Remember, Mary Magdalene was present when Joseph of Arimathea, and Nicodemus, originally spiced up Jesus' corpse. Wasn't 100 pounds of spice enough? Doesn't it seem far-fetched for the women to unwrap, spice, and rewrap, after the corpse already was bloated with 100 pounds of spice?
Or was this just a literary device to have someone go to the tomb and discover the empty tomb, revealing that this story is just a masterpiece of fiction?

I find the following verses very interesting:

Mark 16:2-3:

Quote:

2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"

That they are wondering who would open the tomb demonstrates that they themselves could not do the job. So these women got up early, packed up the spices and walked to the tomb, all the while fully intending to find the tomb sealed up. And then, what? Walk back home, I suppose.

Dear James Brown [Did you resurrect?]

Good point!
If one reads the gospel accounts carefully, and compares them, you can find many silly contradictions. They all point to the fraudulent nature of the Bible.

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 02-20-2008, 01:02 PM

The Unbelievable Gospel According to John

Take a look at some incredible Scriptures from John's Gospel.

Quote:

John 10:16(King James Version)
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

"""there shall be one fold,""" This has not happened. Rather than one fold, Christianity is a conglomeration of hundreds of sects, cults, denominations, and churches all claiming to be the true religious organization started by Jesus. What a mess.

Quote:

John 12:32(King James Version)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

All men have not been drawn to Jesus. Billions of Moslems, Hindus etc attest to that.

Quote:

John 14:12(King James Version)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Really Big Yawn....Jesus walked on water, healed the sick, turned water into wine, fed 5,000 with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread, and raised the dead according to the gospels. I have not seen any Christians doing these works.

These are three examples of Scripture in John that is not true.
Take your pick...Is Jesus a false prophet?......or has John fabricated false stories in his Gospel?
In either case, John's gospel is not a reliable witness for the supposed resurrection of Jesus.

Stuart Shepherd

John Kesler · 02-21-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkforchrist

First of all, their leader was dead. Think of the devastation Jesus’ followers must have had, recalling the brutal crucifixion of their expected Messiah. In first century Judaism, the idea of a dying and rising Messiah was completely unheard of. Instead of being exalted as a king, Jesus was put to death like a common criminal. Yet, something transformed the disciples in a way that they came to sincerely believe that Jesus had been risen. They were even willing to die for their claim, as is recorded by Clement of Rome, Josephus, and others.

Next, contemporary Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded the notion of a dying and rising Messiah. When the Jews at the time referred to “resurrection”, they indeed meant a physical bodily resurrection; however, the dead were believed to be raised at the end of the world, rather than at any point in between. As Joachim Jeremias writes, “Ancient Judaism did not know of an anticipated resurrection as an event of history. Nowhere does one find in the literature anything comparable to the resurrection of Jesus. . . . In no place in the late Judaic literature does it concern a resurrection to [glory] as an event of history.”[5] It would be quite improbable for the disciples to come to believe in Jesus’ resurrection unless it actually occurred. As Luke Timothy Johnson states, “Some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.”[6]

I think that PFC's points above merit a response, but unless I have overlooked it in Sean's reply, none was provided. In short, since there was no expectation of a resurrection until the end of time, and no expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, what caused the belief that Jesus was resurrected?

Steven Carr · 02-21-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkforchrist

First of all, their leader was dead. Think of the devastation Jesus’ followers must have had, recalling the brutal crucifixion of their expected Messiah. In first century Judaism, the idea of a dying and rising Messiah was completely unheard of. Instead of being exalted as a king, Jesus was put to death like a common criminal. Yet, something transformed the disciples in a way that they came to sincerely believe that Jesus had been risen. They were even willing to die for their claim, as is recorded by Clement of Rome, Josephus, and others.

Next, contemporary Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded the notion of a dying and rising Messiah. When the Jews at the time referred to “resurrection”, they indeed meant a physical bodily resurrection; however, the dead were believed to be raised at the end of the world, rather than at any point in between. As Joachim Jeremias writes, “Ancient Judaism did not know of an anticipated resurrection as an event of history. Nowhere does one find in the literature anything comparable to the resurrection of Jesus. . . . In no place in the late Judaic literature does it concern a resurrection to [glory] as an event of history.”[5] It would be quite improbable for the disciples to come to believe in Jesus’ resurrection unless it actually occurred. As Luke Timothy Johnson states, “Some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.”[6]

I think that PFC's points above merit a response, but unless I have overlooked it in Sean's reply, none was provided. In short, since there was no expectation of a resurrection until the end of time, and no expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, what caused the belief that Jesus was resurrected?

Evidence please that there was *no* expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, in the way that there was no expectation in 7th century Arabia of the Angel Gabriel coming to deliver scripture to somebody.

Showing that 99% of Jews had no expectation of X is not the same as showing that 100% of Jews had no expectation of X.

Of course, the Gospels thought it perfectly reasonable for the enemies of Jesus to think that the disciples would hit upon the idea of a dying-and-rising Messiah, without anything of the sort ever happening.

stuart shepherd · 02-21-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkforchrist

First of all, their leader was dead. Think of the devastation Jesus’ followers must have had, recalling the brutal crucifixion of their expected Messiah. In first century Judaism, the idea of a dying and rising Messiah was completely unheard of. Instead of being exalted as a king, Jesus was put to death like a common criminal. Yet, something transformed the disciples in a way that they came to sincerely believe that Jesus had been risen. They were even willing to die for their claim, as is recorded by Clement of Rome, Josephus, and others.

Next, contemporary Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded the notion of a dying and rising Messiah. When the Jews at the time referred to “resurrection”, they indeed meant a physical bodily resurrection; however, the dead were believed to be raised at the end of the world, rather than at any point in between. As Joachim Jeremias writes, “Ancient Judaism did not know of an anticipated resurrection as an event of history. Nowhere does one find in the literature anything comparable to the resurrection of Jesus. . . . In no place in the late Judaic literature does it concern a resurrection to [glory] as an event of history.”[5] It would be quite improbable for the disciples to come to believe in Jesus’ resurrection unless it actually occurred. As Luke Timothy Johnson states, “Some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.”[6]

I think that PFC's points above merit a response, but unless I have overlooked it in Sean's reply, none was provided. In short, since there was no expectation of a resurrection until the end of time, and no expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, what caused the belief that Jesus was resurrected?

I don't know why the Apostles didn't expect Jesus to die and rise from the dead.
Jesus told the Apostles that this would happen....several times.

Quote:

Mark 8:31-32 (King James Version)
31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

Quote:

Mark 10:33-34 (King James Version)
33Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

The Jewish leaders all knew that Jesus predicted he would rise from the dead.

Quote:

Matthew 27:62-63 (King James Version)
62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

The Jews knew, the leaders knew, Jesus told everyone that he would be dead three days and then rise from the grave.
Jesus promised his ""evil and adulterous generation"" that the only sign that he would give them would be that he would be like Jonah, who spent three days in the belly of a whale (dead in "the heart of the earth") and then be spit out on dry land. (return from the dead).

Quote:

Matthew 12:38-40 (King James Version)
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In my opinion, Jesus advertised what he expected would happen.
Everyone should have known.
If anyone claimed that they didn't know, we can only assume that they were either fools or liars.

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 02-21-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkforchrist

First of all, their leader was dead. Think of the devastation Jesus’ followers must have had, recalling the brutal crucifixion of their expected Messiah. In first century Judaism, the idea of a dying and rising Messiah was completely unheard of. Instead of being exalted as a king, Jesus was put to death like a common criminal. Yet, something transformed the disciples in a way that they came to sincerely believe that Jesus had been risen. They were even willing to die for their claim, as is recorded by Clement of Rome, Josephus, and others.

Next, contemporary Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded the notion of a dying and rising Messiah. When the Jews at the time referred to “resurrection”, they indeed meant a physical bodily resurrection; however, the dead were believed to be raised at the end of the world, rather than at any point in between. As Joachim Jeremias writes, “Ancient Judaism did not know of an anticipated resurrection as an event of history. Nowhere does one find in the literature anything comparable to the resurrection of Jesus. . . . In no place in the late Judaic literature does it concern a resurrection to [glory] as an event of history.”[5] It would be quite improbable for the disciples to come to believe in Jesus’ resurrection unless it actually occurred. As Luke Timothy Johnson states, “Some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.”[6]

I think that PFC's points above merit a response, but unless I have overlooked it in Sean's reply, none was provided. In short, since there was no expectation of a resurrection until the end of time, and no expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, what caused the belief that Jesus was resurrected?

Dear John Kesler,
The following post pertains to your comment concerning PFC meriting a response.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcyonian
I have reopened this thread as the conclusion of the other debate is imminent. Please feel free to make any adjustments since a period of time has elapsed. When all parameters are agreed upon this thread will be relocked.

Regards,

Alcyonian (FDP Moderator)

Quote:

The following might not be enforceable, but they were also proposed and agreement was obtained:

Quote:

The opening statements are to be independent. In other words, my opening statement will be setting forth my case, not rebutting PFC's opening statement.

The closing statements should introduce no new matters.

PFC's position will be that, given the evidence, belief in the resurrection of Jesus is reasonable and that disbelief is not. My position will be that disbelief in the resurrection is reasonable and that belief is not.

Cheers,

Sean

As you can see, by agreement between the debaters, opening statements would set forth the debaters case. Rebuttals would start with the rebuttal posts which have not yet been posted.
I do not speak for Sean, but I expect that he will address and rebut PFC's arguments when his turn comes.

We all have to be patient but I know that we are all interested in getting all arguments addressed.

Stuart Shepherd

diana · 02-21-2008, 08:27 PM

stuart,

I'm pretty sure John referred to comments in this thread, which aren't bound by the parameters.

d

stuart shepherd · 02-22-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diana

stuart,

I'm pretty sure John referred to comments in this thread, which aren't bound by the parameters.

d

If John or anyone else has a question, I will try and answer.

I believe that I provided an adequate answer to John's post.

If he is not satisfied, he can ask for more information.

?????

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd · 02-22-2008, 08:46 AM

The Last Words of Jesus.

According to the Gospel according to Matthew
Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

According to the Gospel according to Mark
Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

According to the Gospel according to Luke
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

According to the Gospel according to John
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Are these different “last words” the result of different witnesses providing different testimony, or is this the result of different writers creating different literary masterpieces of fiction?

Stuart Shepherd

02-22-2008, 08:46 AM	#90
stuart shepherd Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 315	The Last Words of Jesus. The Last Words of Jesus. According to the Gospel according to Matthew Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? According to the Gospel according to Mark Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? According to the Gospel according to Luke And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. According to the Gospel according to John When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Are these different “last words” the result of different witnesses providing different testimony, or is this the result of different writers creating different literary masterpieces of fiction? Stuart Shepherd

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02-21-2008, 08:27 PM	#88
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	stuart, I'm pretty sure John referred to comments in this thread, which aren't bound by the parameters. d

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