outhouse

thanks bud

it gave me new information to search

heres another take on 64;b


http://www.templeinstitute.org/passover.htm

He instructed the High Priest who was officiating in the Temple: "Pay attention to the exact amount of offerings that are brought." And so the Priest set aside from the offerings and numbered them... until the figure reached a staggering 1,200,000, which is twice the number of the Jews who participated in the Exodus from Egypt. And this figure is still excluding those who were impure, and those who had not arrived in time! Because of these great numbers, each year they would refer to the holiday as "Passover of density" (see BT Pesachim 64:B).




I would suggest others read the whole article as it gets into detail about gettiong the temple ready long in advance, as well as laws set up for those that didnt make it due to the roads being swelled

Duke Leto

I really don't think there's much point in further discussion. You've made it clear that NO amount of rational evidence is going to change your mind on this, which is a shame.

I'm completely confident that the lowball estimates I've presented are the correct ones and that any reader of this thread is going to be persuaded by Sarpedon and I's position.

outhouse

well you have done one thing right



you have proved your not in the same league as scholars who are proffessionals at this.

outhouse

you would have to make a decent point as to why 400,000 would not be the upper limit.

you have failed

food
water
space
population

CHECK


you would have to come up with a decent reason why one of those would limit the number. You have failed

Duke Leto

You've been given close to 100. At first you were saying that most of the 400,000 figure was the pilgrims, now you seem to be tacking back to say a lot of it was the permanent population.

At first you claimed you didn't believe the Tacitus number of 600,000 in the siege, now you turn around and say that there was a minimum of 180,000 defenders and the 600,000 number should be used as a reference to what the city could handle for extended periods. (In spite of being shown that 7 months of food for all those people would be a pile of grain pots 24 feet high and 4 acres in area.) When shown that your number of 120,000 for Titus' army was inflated something like 4x (4 legions, 5300 men per legion) you didn't even bother to acknowledge the problem.

I'm sorry, I haven't shown a lack of scholarship here. You're the one whose been showing unbelievable credulity.

outhouse

false , lets have you post where you got this from so I can correct if i was mistaken or wrote it wrong.

I have never stated a permanent population


I said I didnt know and yes, I dont trust it. Could be higher or lower.


I made it very clear that was a example to show a high population could exist in the temple area for longer then a week. NOTHING MORE i was very clear.



I was using the number straight from Carrier's reply.






Now I see you are trying to dig in on me, its what happens when one looses a debate. They attack the messenger since they cannot attack the message. would you be a creationist? or YEC?



now if you want to debate this in a logical manner im game.


show me that the jewish population wasnt high enough for the "Passover of density" to be fiction.

you cannot. the numbers in the levant were there.


show me the water storage in a place that hadpractice with large yearly pilgramiges, a aquaduct, spring and multiple storage pond, could not keep people alive for a week. WHEN we know there was a long war with hundreds of thousands of people.

You cannot





all im asking is that you make a good case, you have not. since the beginning you stated water, and were shot down, you stated sewer and were shot down.

you contest multiple scholars, and historians, and you havent really made a good point as to why

outhouse

You should take your arguement straight to Wiki and have it out with them.

Or expand the article if your so passionate about it. me, im just defending myself easily to your objections of numbers I quote in post backed by scholars

Duke Leto

Then you didn't read it. Carrier said the ENTIRE Roman Army of 28 Legions was 150,000. Titus' army had 4 Legions. Adding Auxilia 35,000 combatants is really all that's reasonable. Carrier said nothing about the size of Titus' Army.

You've been shown numerous times that the area of modern Israel could not have supported a population of the size you're talking about in the 1st Century CE, a massive problem when not all of the population was Jewish. Now you shifted gears again and said they came from "The entire Levant". Are you serious?

The distance from Nazareth to Jerusalem by the straightest route is ~50 miles through hilly terrain. The Roman legions could only march 22 miles a day in the best of conditions. If our friends the "oppressed Jews" of Galilee could make much better than 5 with women, children and pack animals in tow that would surprise me enormously, especially if the roads were clogged. (Which under your scenario they would be.) That's a 20 day round trip, add to that however many days the festival is supposed to be and that's a month they're not in the fields or fishing or whatever. And I'm pretty sure that's the planting season to boot.

And Galilee is mostly within the area of Modern Israel, where the majority of your oppressed Jews have to be coming from.

Every 50 miles further afield increases the problem. Let's say Jews from Antioch were walking. (They're oppressed, they can't afford sea passage to Caesarea.) Let's be absurd and say they cross 10 of the 400 miles a day. That's 80 days out of the year Jews of Antioch spend on the road just to observe Passover.

Half of what is technically the Levant or Fertile Crescent, was in the Parthian Empire. I'll grant you that there were lots of Jews in Babylon/Cteisophon, probably more than in Jerusalem in fact, but it was just too far to travel and they are unlikely to have been allowed to pass the border anyway.

Sorry, but if you want us to believe this absurd number the pilgrims pretty much have to be coming from Judea itself, MAYBE Idumenea.

outhouse

not once has this been shown.

I have schoolars that claim 400,000 would and did fit



so you know where all these pilgrams came from?? its called the levant


Jews that could make it often did, there were laws regarding what would happen if caught on the road and not making it in time

Duke Leto

Pointless. Since you now want your oppressed Jews from all over the Levant to have cars, I guess we can pretty much have the Sadducees collaborate with the Alien Space Bats on crowd control.