Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 06-15-2011, 03:11 AM

Driving by...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Paul entirely (or mostly) invented Christianity, no?

If so, I have a couple of questions.

If so, why do you suppose that he would have done this? Also, how would you reconcile this with the evidence suggesting not only that there were other Christian groups around at the time of Paul that he didn't found, but that these groups didn't agree with Paul's theology at all?

I'm not disagreeing with you; but I would like some clarification.

As a working hypothesis, I would have put Paul's name in the spaces of the OP. Paul claims to have had a revelation from god (Gal 1:11-12, 15-16) providing him with the good news he spread. Never does he cite anyone else who provided him with any theological information.

JonA assumes that the evidence in Galatians suggests that there were "other Christian [to use an anachronism] groups around at the time of Paul," but Paul doesn't say anything of the sort. He acknowledges people who came before him without explaining their positions or views. It is only apologetics which asserts that there were such "Christian groups". Paul is offering salvation through Jesus, not through the performance of the law, which is what he indicates is the alternative to his gospel.

Paul maintains an ill-conceived notion of messianism, equating it with "salvationism". He offers a savior rather than a messiah, though calling his savior a messiah, which would obviously confuse a Jew.

Obviously what came before Paul were messianists (whether they were Jesus believing messianists, Paul offers no indications, for Paul's Jesus information he tells us comes directly from revelation). If we assume that Paul's predecessors were expectant messianists then can we know that those he acknowledges as his predecessors were anything more than expectant messianists, as followers of John the Baptist would have been? There is no necessary indication of "other Christian groups" in Paul's writings--other than the groups Paul himself created through the diaspora.

Sajara · 06-15-2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

1 Cor 15.15-17

Quote:

....we are found false witnesses of God BECAUSE we have testified of God that he raised up Christ ......if so be that the dead rise not............ And if Christ be not raised, your FAITH is VAIN....

Your quote is taken out of context...

Quote:

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

JonA · 06-15-2011, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Jon continues to ignore answers to his questions, ...

I'm not ignoring. Like I said in the OP, I'm collecting:

Quote:

JonA in Message 1:

I'm just collecting explanations for now; ...

I don't intend to turn this thread into a discussion on everyone's viewpoint:

Quote:

JonA in Message 1:

I'd prefer to avoid lengthy back-and-forth discussions on particular explanations; ...

My intentions and goals in starting this thread were clear from the get-go.

If you think you have a particularly revolutionary viewpoint that you just have to have me reply to, start a thread on that viewpoint only and I will drop by to discuss it.

Jon

aa5874 · 06-15-2011, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajara

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

1 Cor 15.15-17

Your quote is taken out of context...

Quote:

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

You just PROVED that your assertion is false.

The Christian Faith is vain if Jesus was NOT raised from the dead.

"Paul" was a False witness if there was NO resurrection of the dead.

THERE is NO such thing as RESURRECTIONS.

1. "Paul" is a FALSE witness.

2. christianity is WITHOUT jesus.

aa5874 · 06-15-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

But the best was of explaining Christianity without Jesus is that Jesus was a fictional character cobbled together from literature available to a late century in antiquity.

Good. Then why not fill the blanks in with that? 'Before someone combined X, Y, Z Scriptural/pagan worship references together... ... '

The only rule is that your explanation cannot be: 'historical Jesus' or 'ahistorical Jesus'. Anything else is fair game, including explanations that have these things as their consequences.

With so few rules, I'm wondering why this game is proving so difficult for folk to play.

Jon

Again, you do NOT even understand what you have written.

"Explaining Christianity without Jesus" ACTUALLY means "Explaining Christianity WITHOUT an "historical Jesus".

You have PRESUMED that Christianity has ALREADY been explained with Jesus when Christianity has NOT EVER been EXPLAINED with Jesus.

Let us GO through the Synoptics and you will see that there was NO CHRISTIANITY when Jesus was supposedly alive.

In the Synoptics, Jesus was a TOTAL DISASTER. The disciples had ABANDONED him when he was ARRESTED and Peter who ALONE claimed Jesus was Christ DENIED EVER knowing or was ASSOCIATED with him.

That is the SCENARIO up to the VERY day Jesus was crucified in the Synoptics.

There were NO CHRISTIANS in the Synoptics. NO one even called Jesus the Christ and Jesus did NOT allow his disciples to tell any one he was Christ.

The Synoptics EXPLAINS very well that Jesus, described as some Child of a Ghost, did NOT preach to the Jews that he was Christ and did NOT preach he was a King.

Examine gMark, Jesus, who also TRANSFIGURED and WALKED on water, PREACHED the Good NEWS of the Kingdom of God.

Mr 1:14-15

Quote:

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, REPENT YE, and believe the gospel.

So, we KNOW what the Synoptic Jesus (described as some kind of Ghost) was PREACHING.

He was NOT preaching that he was Christ.

He was NOT preaching he was a King.

He was PREACHING the GOOD NEWS that the Kingdom of God was at hand and that the JEWS should REPENT.

It is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that we UNDERSTAND what "REPENT" means in the SYNOPTICS.

The Jews REPENT when they ABIDE by and FOLLOW the LAWS of the God of Moses and carry out SACRIFICES.

The Synoptic Jesus WANTED Jews to ABIDE by the LAWS of the God of Moses.

The Synoptic Jesus came to FULFILL LAW.

Mt 5:17 -

Quote:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Synoptics EXPLAIN VERY WELL that Christianity was WITHOUT JESUS from the very start.

Even in the BIBLE, Jesus (described as a Ghost) COMMANDED and DEMANDED that NO MAN know of him and the JEWS MUST REPENT (ABIDE by and FOLLOW the LAWS of the God of Moses with Sacrifice).

Now, in the BIBLE, People were FIRST called Christians WITH the HOLY GHOST very LONG after Jesus had VANISHED from the earth.

Ironically, if Jesus was seen alive AFTER he was crucified then he ABANDONED his FOLLOWERS and was NOT part of the CHRISTIAN movement at all.

Christianity was ALWAYS WITHOUT Jesus in the very BIBLE.

Jesus wanted the JEWS to FOLLOW and ABIDE by the LAWS of the God of the Jews and to SACRIFICE.

Mt 8:4 -

Quote:

And Jesus saith unto him...... shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded

JonA NEEDS to EXPLAIN Christianity with Jesus.

CHRISTIANITY was WITHOUT Jesus in the VERY Bible.

Why does JonA IMAGINE his own HISTORY of Christianity?

Jona has ZERO credible evidence from antiquity for his PRESUMPTIONS

The History of Christianity was ALWAYS WITHOUT JESUS. We have the EVIDENCE from antiquity.

The ABUNDANCE of evidence from antiquity suggests Christianity is FROM the 2nd century.

Sajara · 06-16-2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajara

Your quote is taken out of context...

You just PROVED that your assertion is false.

The Christian Faith is vain if Jesus was NOT raised from the dead.

"Paul" was a False witness if there was NO resurrection of the dead.

THERE is NO such thing as RESURRECTIONS.

1. "Paul" is a FALSE witness.

2. christianity is WITHOUT jesus.

First of all..I am an atheist. Second of all, I lean towards Jesus being a myth. Lastly...you were using the quote to show that even Paul thought his beliefs were false. In looking at the full quote though, he was stating that IF Jesus was never resurected, THEN his beliefs would be in vain...BUT they were not in vain because Jesus was resurected (at least according to Paul ahem).

aa5874 · 06-16-2011, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajara

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You just PROVED that your assertion is false.

The Christian Faith is vain if Jesus was NOT raised from the dead.

"Paul" was a False witness if there was NO resurrection of the dead.

THERE is NO such thing as RESURRECTIONS.

1. "Paul" is a FALSE witness.

2. christianity is WITHOUT jesus.

First of all..I am an atheist. Second of all, I lean towards Jesus being a myth. Lastly...you were using the quote to show that even Paul thought his beliefs were false. In looking at the full quote though, he was stating that IF Jesus was never resurected, THEN his beliefs would be in vain...BUT they were not in vain because Jesus was resurected (at least according to Paul ahem).

Are you IMPLYING that "Paul" is always TRUTHFUL?

Pleae read the passage.

1Co 15:15 -

Quote:

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1Co 15:16 -

Quote:

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised

I ask you, " DOES the dead RISE"?

NOT!!!

We have found a FALSE Witness.

We have found "Paul".

Christianity was WITHOUT Jesus.

Sajara · 06-17-2011, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajara

First of all..I am an atheist. Second of all, I lean towards Jesus being a myth. Lastly...you were using the quote to show that even Paul thought his beliefs were false. In looking at the full quote though, he was stating that IF Jesus was never resurected, THEN his beliefs would be in vain...BUT they were not in vain because Jesus was resurected (at least according to Paul ahem).

Are you IMPLYING that "Paul" is always TRUTHFUL?

Pleae read the passage.

1Co 15:15 -
1Co 15:16 -

Quote:

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised

I ask you, " DOES the dead RISE"?

NOT!!!

We have found a FALSE Witness.

We have found "Paul".

Christianity was WITHOUT Jesus.

And again...you are taking the passage out of context. Please go back and read the whole passage as I posted it for you.

Paul is clearly saying...IF Jesus did not resurect, THEN we would be wrong...BUT he did resurect, SO we are right.

I agree with you that it is impossible to resurect the dead...but according to the passage, Paul is saying that it happened.

To say that Paul lied is taking that passage out of context, or better yet, it is adding context to the passage that cannot be proven. We will never know if Paul actually believed that Jesus rose from the dead...or if he made the whole thing up knowingly for power/money/fame/what have you.

You are trying to show that the passage catches Paul in a lie, when it really doesn't if you take the whole passage in perspective.

Sajara · 06-17-2011, 06:44 AM

And again, please note that I agree that Christianity started without Jesus...as I think Jesus never existed.

ApostateAbe · 06-17-2011, 06:52 AM

Sajara, aa5874 is typically ignored by the veteran members of BC&H. Don't let him bother you.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-17-2011, 06:44 AM	#69
Sajara Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: New England, USA Posts: 1,596	And again, please note that I agree that Christianity started without Jesus...as I think Jesus never existed.

06-17-2011, 06:52 AM	#70
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Sajara, aa5874 is typically ignored by the veteran members of BC&H. Don't let him bother you.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.