stephan huller

DCH

My only purpose in providing the photos of the manuscripts was to avoid letting Andy Williams become too much of a distraction - and the omegas.

The circumstances of the discovery are also fascinating. It is amazing to me to see people accept these circumstances without blinking and yet the circumstances of Mar Saba 65 are “obviously” suspicious

stephan huller

I managed to get David Trobisch on the phone at his SBL session. He told me he would answer any questions about Sinaiticus in one hour (he was a keynote speaker at the recent Sinaiticus Conference in London). Any questions from the group?

DCHindley

That is how a lot of these famous critics got their manuscripts, by sneaking them out and then claiming they were rubbish free to be taken by anyone, or by illegal wink-wink-nod-nod sales of national or religious treasures in order for the "seller" to raise quick cash.

The attitude seems to have been "Those ignorant eastern orthodox monks don't know what they have, so we'll just appropriate it from them any way we can - for the greater good of western civilization, of course."

So, is it any wonder that Simonides, eastern orthodox as he was, was motivated to outwit the crafty westerners? I'd suspect that there had long been going on the practice of monks making "fair" (i.e., good/exact) copies of famous codices for sale to the eastern and western elite classes, not always represented as copies mind you, and not always so "fair". There may have been many such copied codices and leaves commissioned on "spec" by the dealers of such things, waiting for the right opportunity to sell them at a huge profit.

Simonides appears to have been just such a dealer with a great deal of knowledge about the originals (how else to convince the rich buyer he is getting the "real deal"). Once his scam involving other manuscripts was exposed, it is natural that he might try to embarass the parties who exposed him, but that doesn't mean Sinaiticus is a fake, just that Simonides claims it was to embarass Tischendorf. Apparently, it was more embarassing to charge a westerner with being took for a fool than to charge him with cheating easterners for the better good of western society.

DCH

DCHindley

Has he examined it himself?

Considering he has examined literally thousands of original mss while hanging about in Germany, has he noted any incongruities in Sinaiticus that would cause him to seriously question its age?

DCH

PS: Remind him that he hadn't responded to my e-mail from a while back seeking his opinion about the aims of the organizers of the Jesus Project, (specifically R Joseph Hoffman). He did respond to say that he was in the middle of a move at the time. I think it must have slipped off his radar, and I'm too much of a gentleman to push.

stephan huller

Yes I will pass it on IF he calls me back. It's been an hour no response. I feel like the girl after a bad date. He has examined Sinaiticus. His topic at the Sinaiticus conference was:

David Trobisch – Codex Sinaiticus and the formation of the Christian Bible

I am sure he is not agreeable to the forgery hypothesis but he might be able to shed light on some points raised by Andrew and others. There is an interesting story here. I am seeing David for a week in April when I am going to be in Branson.

mountainman

Ask him if there are any plans to negotiate for the introduction of new reliable evidence into the debate by C14 dating Sinaiticus, and if not, why not. IMHO C14 dating should be a standard scholarly academic practice for all manuscripts claimed to have been manufactured in antiquity. But then, that's just my opinion.

"Everything which has come down to us
from heathendom is wrapped in a thick fog;
it belongs to a space of time we cannot measure.
We know that it is older than Christendom, but
whether by a couple of years
or a couple of centuries,
or even by more than a millenium,
we can do no more than guess."

[Rasmus Nyerup, (Danish antiquarian), 1802 CE

stephan huller

Actually the topic came up the last time we spoke and he happen to mention that because of pollution copper domes on old buildings are deteriorating faster than they used to. His point - maybe C 14 isn't always the answer

Solo

My understanding is that Tischendorf first saw Vaticanus in 1843 but did not discover the larger part of the Sinai codex until sixteen years later. So whatever it is, an example of synchronicity it would not be.

Best,
Jiri

Sheshbazzar

Ummm... no terrific scientist here, but how does the rate of oxidation of copper domes on old buildings have any correlation to the constant rate of radioactive decay upon which C14 measurements are based?

Has it been observed and documented that 'pollution' is capable of speeding up the rate of radioactive decay?
'Young Earthers' would love to get their hands on any scientific evidence of that!

stephan huller

Jiri,

Alright fine, not synchronicity but an amazing set of coincidences. Tischendorf is the first to study Vaticanus and Ephraemi in the years leading up to the discovery of papers in the garbage of St Catherines in 1844:

Trobisch tells me a new definitive biography of Tischendorf has just been published in German. He's going to send me the info on that. I'll buy it and write a summary but apparently Tischendorf comes off looking like something of a kook. There are letters apparently between Tischendorf and his wife for the period.

I don't know what you call it. If it isn't synchronicity (I never studied Jung as I always hated people that did) it's whatever you call what happened to Nietzsche before he had his breakdown - i.e. reading Dostoevsky and the living Dostoevsky. The same thing they allege happened with Morton Smith and the Hunter novel (except there is no evidence Smith knew about this pulp fiction work).

What are the odds that a guy who walks around getting to various known codices first, ends up finding paper in the trash that turns out to be another hitherto unknown text - i.e. Sinaiticus. It might well not be a forgery (when I asked Trobisch about the idea he didn't know what to say) and maybe it's not 'synchronicity' but if you accept that all of this is genuine then Tischendorf was a very blessed individual, it's enough to prove the existence of fate, God and all the other stuff people love around here.