Jeffrey Gibson

Could you please provide me with the pages on which Talbert speaks of "hero biographies" as an actual, let alone a "scholarly recognized", genre? I have the book in front of me and do not see him saying any such thing.

And while you are at it, especially since you have claimed that the view that there was such a genre and that it had a very definite form is now the scholarly consensus, could you please name the scholars who are part of this consensus?

Jeffrey

aa5874

Absolute nonsense.

It is most reasonable and logical to claim that the Jesus described in the NT did not exist.

Achilles, the son of a human and a sea-goddess, is mythical just from his description once no other evidence is available. JESUS IS THE VERY SAME.

The belief that Jesus existed has no value as evidence, it is just a belief.

People may have believed Apollo existed or that Zeus existed or still exist but their beliefs are irrelevant until evidence can be found And it is the same with Jesus, the belief that Jesus existed has no real value without evidence.

People may believe a man found guilty of a crime is innocent, but their belief is worthless without evidence to support such a belief.

All the evidence or written statements in the NT and church writings claimed Jesus was the son of the god of the Jews, who resurrected and ascended through he clouds, suh statements are fiction.

It is reasonable to clain Jesus was a character born from fiction until evidence can be found to contradict.

spamandham

Right, but your premise simultaneously needs Jesus to be remarkable and unremarkable. To get around it, you're going to have to invent something unsupported by the evidence. That's what makes it unlikely. A good premise would not have glaring contradictions, so the peasant idea is not a good premise.

You haven't used any method as far as I can tell. It's just hand waving.

I provided you the references and some of the specific individuals whose biographies are compared to the gospels by Talbert, as you requested. I've told you what the scholarly consensus is and pointed you to the reference. You on the other hand, have provided even less than this.

You have not explained at any level why you disagree with the scholarly consensus.

The short version is, because he's presented in divine terms, working miracles everywhere he goes, as is common for that genre. The story is told in third person, and follows Jesus around, as is common for the genre. The story has us listening in on conversations no-one could possibly have recorded - as is common for the genre, and it attributes many pre-existing wisdom sayings to the main character as is common for the genre. There's much more to it than this, but I think you have to agree I've already given you more than you've given me.

I've come to the conclusion that there isn't enough evidence to form a conclusion, as I've stated a couple of times now.

A solid approach would at least start by identifying the motives of the authors (including Paul), and bounding when the texts were written. Then, you have to have some understanding of the cultures involved, to understand how they were intended to be read. Qualified scholars are all over the map on these.

aa5874

Do you understand what "fiction" means?

Do you understand what "implausible" means?

The evidence or written statements provided by the authors of the NT and church writers presented Jesus as the son of the God of the Jews, who resurrected and ascended through the clouds, this is fiction and implausible.

I consider Jesus to be a fictitious character until evidence can be found.

spamandham

Pages 134 and 135 summarize the subtypes of Talbert's analysis. The types are defined on pages 94-98. Why are you asking me basic points of fact if you have the book in front of you?

Are you just picking a nit with the exact expression "hero biography"? I don't have a problem using abbreviated descriptions.

Elijah

The self sacrifice and getting his followers to imitate it was why he was remarkable and unremarkable at the same time.
You provided the names of two gods and two historical figures but nothing of this fictional hero genre. Please point me to the texts that support your hero genre position and stop dodging.
I don’t care about the scholarly consensus, I’m much more about the evidence that lead to that consensus. I’m not a fan of everyone thinks this so I should too.
I can’t comment on what is common to the genre until I see what you are referencing as that genre.

Depends on how long after his supposed death you put the writing of the gospels for the incorporating sayings and legend that didn’t belong to him. If it was long enough for oral transmission between generations to be needed it should be expected.
Ok you stick in I-don’t-know-land; I’m going to move on with him being nothing noteworthy until I see some reason to reevaluate that. I can’t worry about getting enough evidence to be a hundred percent sure when I know that’s never going to happen so I just go with what’s most likely.
They were trying to convince people he was the messiah. That to me is the primary motivation of the writers of the gospels and Paul.

Elijah

You are really not understanding me aa. I realize you think it's fiction. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that you are reading that fiction with a child's understanding and you need to try it like an educated person's who is familiar with the politics and philosophy going on in the time of the writing of this fiction. You should try to read it and not imagine a cartoon but understand the expressions as figurative or spiritual but in the philosophical idealist way, not in a cartoon way but a rational way. You don't have to accept that's the way it should be interpreted but you should be able to at least understand the position of those who do interpret it that way.

aa5874

How do you interpret Homer's Achilles? When Homer wrote that Achilles was the son of a sea goddess, and a real human, how do you interpret such a statement?

I have no problem interpreting Homer, Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Irenaeus, Origen, Tertllian, Justin Martyr, Eusebius, Ignatius, Clement, Theophilus of Antioch, Tatian, Athenagoras, Julian, Rufinus, Chrysostom and others, I understand what fiction is, and the authors of the NT wrote fiction.

It is Not true that Jesus ascended through the clouds and was WITNESSED by his disciples.

But you want me to accept your imagination as the truth.

Don't make your imagination run wild. Your imagintion is irrelevant.

Jeffrey Gibson

Because he doesn't use the term "hero biography" nor does he recognize that there was any such genre.

The question isn't whether your description(s) is(are) abbreviated. It's whether it (they) is(are) accurate.

Jeffrey

Elijah

I don't think so but you're not understanding me anyway.