Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cheerful Charlie · 03-16-2013, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

spin,

I haven't laughed like that since I was twelve. Just when you thought you had heard the craziest thesis ever.

Stephan

The Hollow earth thesis came up here. And UFOs. There is the thesis of some that the Nazis created UFOs in the waning days of WWII and escaped to the hollow earth openigs at the poles to take up residence there. UFO kookery......

Cheerful Charlie

spin · 03-17-2013, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In the 19th century, there were people who listened to spirits as a source of truth. Theosophy was built around what spirits allegedly told Madame Blavatsky. These writers thought they were channeling ancient knowledge. We now think that they were reporting their unfiltered subconscious thoughts.

That is just so demurely expressed! :notworthy:

spin · 03-17-2013, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

spin,

I haven't laughed like that since I was twelve. Just when you thought you had heard the craziest thesis ever.

Stephan

:constern01:

But maybe Apollonius of Tyana the Nazarene (1964) isn't meant to be comic relief.

spin · 03-17-2013, 02:05 AM

On the death of Dr Bernard:

His final and most popular book was the "The Hollow Earth." He died of pneumonia on September 10, 1965, while searching the tunnel openings to the interior of the Earth, in South America. He was an individual who was not afraid to explore well beyond the confines of the `establishment's convention', and the spirit of his controversial research lives on....

Clivedurdle · 03-17-2013, 03:09 AM

Michael Faraday interestingly did a lot of work exposing table turning and similar.

Quote:

Faraday and Table-Talk
Table-turning was among the many supernatural phenomena that caught the public’s attention during the 19th century. Similar to the movement of the planchette during a Ouija board séance, a table would begin moving among the participants sitting around it.

Michael Faraday (who is well represented in the Vail Collection) came out in public against table-turning and all supernatural séance activities. He censured both the public and the British education system for buying into it. But many continued to attribute these table movements to an invisible force, like electricity or magnetism.

Always the scientist, Faraday tried using a variety of insulators, such as wood and rubber, to interfere with the table’s movement, and observed no difference in the movement. He concluded that no special force was at work. Finally, in 1853, he conducted an experiment proving (to him and most other scientists) that table-turning was the result of participants’ ideomotor action. That is to say, participants were unconsciously moving the tables themselves. This remains the accepted explanation today.

http://libraries.mit.edu/sites/colle...nd-table-talk/

wordy · 03-17-2013, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Yes it can feel fun to ridicule the Hollow Earth believers.

But we derail the thread which is about Apollonius of Tyana
as a template or inspiration for teh creation of the Jesus Myth.

what if that is true? Have nothing to do with Hollow Earth at all

So let us get back in track here.

What is it about Jesus that made that story survive
and that the story about Apollonius of Tyana to almost get lost?

Long ago I read Philostratus's biography of Apollonius. He seems to have rather impressed a lot of people in his day and age.

But he did not promise a way to obtain salvation, eternal life in heaven etc. Which Apparently is what you have to do to form a truly lasting cult. Jesus, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, et al.

Apollonius became a favorite of the woo-woo crowd, blavatsky's Theosophists, spiritualist churches and so on. Proof that you to could work miracles if you became sufficiently "spiritually advanced".

My favorite Apollonius tale, summoned to the court of ann angry Diocletian, Appolloius disappeard physically from the court in front of many witnesses, only to be seen that day 200 miles away. The point being how tales of such things are easily created and credited.

Cheerful Charlie

Yes you most likely are right.

Quote:

But he did not promise a way to obtain salvation,
eternal life in heaven etc. Which Apparently is
what you have to do to form a truly lasting cult.

That is why I am so skeptical to Buddha. They have no gods
or they don't care about their gods much but they sure have
a way to end suffering and they hold on to that faith in very
similar ways to how the believers in supernaturalism hold on
to their dogmas too.

if one ask native users of Buddhism why so many died
due to the Tsunami then they say it was their bad karma.

To me that is to be deep into a superstitious delusion.
There is no evidence that any of those that died had
bad karma at all. They happen to live at the cost
where an earth quake did happen far out at the sea.

wordy · 03-17-2013, 03:30 AM

Quote:

But he did not promise a way to obtain salvation, eternal life in heaven etc.
Which Apparently is what you have to do to form a truly lasting cult

That explain why Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy cult
is so strong here in Sweden. Almost sacred and holy as none dare
to say any criticism to them because all the progressive Left
has their kids in their Free Schools. we don't have a single Unitarian
Universalist Church or even such group here in our country.
Rudolf Steiner supporters suck them all in that would be part of UU.
so no niche left for any UU group to find any potential members.

mountainman · 03-18-2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

As a naive bystander one get curious on if this
Apollonius of Tyana has more historic evidence for him
than what Jesus have? Or is he a myth too?

IMO unlike Jesus, Apollonius is a well attested historical figure from the 1st century. I have assembled a small reference of articles related to Apollonius here

Quote:

CONTENTS__________________________________________ ______

Apollonius of Tyana and His Historicity - Maria Dzielska -- one of the foremost of authors on Apollonius.
An epigram on Apollonius of Tyana - Inscription and its translation with background by C. P. JONES
Philostratus - "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana", published c.220 CE, extracts of Coneybeare's translation.
G.R.S. MEAD - The Philosopher Explorer and Social Reformer of the First Century AD, published 1901.
Dr. R. W. Bernard - Apollonius the Nazarene, published 1964
Keven Brown - Hermes Trismegistus & Apollonius of Tyana in the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, 1997
LITERATURE of Apollonius - A collation of the books, literature and letters of Apollonius.
The Eusebian Treatise - Fourth century calumny of the memory of Apollonius; politics at its best.
Apollonius ONLINE - Chrestos Publishers have presented their new book online.

Quote:

Suppose Apollonius of Tyana can be shown to have really existed
and that texts can be reliably referred to to be in his style?

He is reported to have authored a number of books, none of which survive. Eusebius cites Apollonius as an authority. The books were reportedly preserved at some of the major temples of Asclepius near Aegae, and perhaps elsewhere. These were destroyed along with their libraries.

Quote:

What is it that makes his views fail of Jesus is based on him and works?
Can NeoPagans somehow resurrect I mean reconstruct him then?

Eusebius wrote a polemical attack on a book which appeared in the 4th century which dared to compare Jesus and Apollonius. It is available online to be read.

One question is why this comparison appeared only in the 4th century, if Jesus and Apollonius both wandered around in the 1st century.

Quote:

I find it interesting but realize that it would include a lot of reading
to catch up on what views he had. Do we know him went to India?
Could not that be a myth?

It's possible of course. However its just as possible he made the treck as described in his 3rd century biography (Eusebius calls this a history).

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Cheerful Charlie · 03-18-2013, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

That's the problem. In the 19th century, there were people who listened to spirits as a source of truth. Theosophy was built around what spirits allegedly told Madame Blavatsky. These writers thought they were channeling ancient knowledge. We now think that they were reporting their unfiltered subconscious thoughts.

Theosophists wrote a bit about Apollonios and his similarities to Jesus:

Theosophy pamphlet

If Jesus was based on Apollonios, none of these sources are good or sufficient evidence.

http://www.lightforcenetwork.com/log...bunch-hooey”

Madame Blavatsky owned a 'magic' cabinet into which she claimed the ascended masters of Tibet teleported informative manuscripts telling the secrets of Theosophy to Mme Blavatsky. She was one of the great frauds of her age. This is almost as good as Joseph Smith's golden plates obtained from the angel Moroni.Google blavatsky's magic cabinet for more.

In 1882, the Theosophical Society moved its headquarters to Adyar and by 1884, the society began to attract many Europeans along with Indian disciples. This two year time period is when the Mahatma letters really made their debut. They would frequently appear in cabinet known as the “Shrine” which was located in the “Occult Room” conveniently located adjacent to Blavatsky’s bedroom. It is reported that they, “also fell from the ceiling in various places and appeared in the margins of sealed correspondence.” Despite this wondrous affair there was trouble. Two disgruntled employees of the society claimed they had participated in ‘faking’ psychic phenomena connected to verifying the existence of the Mahatmas (big surprise there). Alexis and Emma Coulomb claimed the, “Shrine was designed to allow letters to be inserted through a sliding panel in the back, making them appear to have materialized paranormally (P.T. Barnum anyone?). The accusations received plenty of attention.

Cheerful Charlie

mountainman · 03-18-2013, 08:23 PM

The meat is in Codex Bezae which specifically names "Apollonius" rather than Apollos" in Acts.

The biography of Apollonius does not mention Jesus or the Christians.
But one of the earliest storybooks about Jesus and the Christian Apostles mention the teacher Apollonius [of Tyana].

So who was fabricated and who was historical?

The Jesus industry has been trying to sweep Apollonius under the carpet since the 4th century.

Why?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Another author who has written a book on the same subject is Dr. R. W. Bernard. He wrote - Apollonius of Tyana the Nazarene (1964).

Also by R.W. Bernard M.D.:

The Hollow Earth: The Greatest Geographical Discovery in History Made by Admiral Richard E. Byrd in the Mysterious Land Beyond the Poles- The True Origin of the Flying Saucers (or via: amazon.co.uk)

and Flying Saucers from the Earth's Interior (or via: amazon.co.uk)

:tomato:

ROFL:

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/Bernard/Index.htm
""Dedicated To the Future Explorers of the New World that exists beyond North and South Poles in the hollow interior of the Earth. Who will Repeat Admiral Byrd's historic Flight for 1,700 Miles beyond the North Pole and that of his Expedition for 2,300 Miles beyond the South Pole, entering a New Unknown Territory not shown on any map, covering an immense land area whose total size is larger than North America, consisting of forests, mountains, lakes, vegetation and animal life.""

The meat is in chapter 7:

Chapter 7: The Subterranean Origin of the Flying Saucers
Part 7.1: The Subterranean Origin of the Flying Saucers
Part 7.2: Agharta, The Subterranean World
Part 7.3: The Flight to the Land Beyond the North Pole
Part 7.4: Underground Cities

Here is the complete list of his works.
http://www.ourhollowearth.com/Bernard/WorksList.htm

Vork

03-17-2013, 02:05 AM	#14
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	On the death of Dr Bernard: His final and most popular book was the "The Hollow Earth." He died of pneumonia on September 10, 1965, while searching the tunnel openings to the interior of the Earth, in South America. He was an individual who was not afraid to explore well beyond the confines of the `establishment's convention', and the spirit of his controversial research lives on....

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.