Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tommy · 01-25-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barre

What is the evidence for or against a Roman crucifixion of Jesus?

Doesn't Acts tell us Jesus was hung from a tree by the Jews? If Acts was really written later than the gospels does this not represent the early Xian view on his death?

Chili · 01-25-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The gospels are written in fictional form of the day. It actually reduces to an action adventure story as we would frame it today.

It is a tradegdy with a surprise ending. Image an ancient literate reader I tarting on page one not knowing anything about the story.

Sure and that depends on how far you want to strech the meaning 'fiction' as a death must take place, and for this both water and blood must be let to show a 'total transformation' from both the TOL and the TOK, and hence the piercing from the right to deflate the cavity called 'chest' wherein 'large hearts' are heroes. It so is that all the senses are pierced and therefore he must die to include those that are native to man and to which 'the human condition' is an a priori slave.

Rembrandt painted "A Slaughtered Ox" that he equated with the crucifixion without the word Jesus attached to it. This makes people wonder why he attached that meaning to it and people are still wondering about that today and will always drag Jesus into their argument, while all that means is that even bulls get crucified to render them ox for the rest of their life . . . lest they go chasing girls in a rubber dingy and cannot cross the great divide. Moreover they will not even sniff to check it out, and maybe that is what Rembrandt had in mind. Allegory, maybe so, but with no marriage in heaven and John left for Patmos to write his Revelation it would not surprise me that those [blessed] closards in Paris are the true Christians of today . . . and who wants to be one of those and by now cold is beginning to look a whole lot better.

http://www.artinthepicture.com/paint...laughtered-Ox/

And of course the ''chief priests' knew about this or they would not have cautioned Pilate in Matthew . . . and then the very response by Pilate to prevent the early death was the reason that he died so soon, but only to the TOL and not the incarnate inclination and so no piercing was done and Jesus in response said: "first you beat me up and now look what you did to me!"

la70119 · 01-25-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Crucifixion's a doddle. Jesus should have been stabbed.

He was, at least in gJohn.

John 19

Quote:

33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

The sudden flow of blood and water shows he was still ALIVE.

Chili · 01-25-2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Crucifixion's a doddle. Jesus should have been stabbed.

He was, at least in gJohn.

John 19

Quote:

33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

The sudden flow of blood and water shows he was still ALIVE.

And that was Matthews problem who so never died.

la70119 · 01-25-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsonic

you christians say that john witnessed the crucifixion. if he could finnish off your god by having a pagan roman pierce his side, then why was it difficult for him to include
"truly this was the son of god" ?

No quote.

Oh, for the love of Jesus Caesar Christ. READ YOUR BIBLE.

Allow me to quote mrsonic here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsonic

[la70119: gMark 15]

Quote:

36 “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.d

38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottome 39 And when the centurion who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!

[la70119: gMatthew 27]

Quote:

49 “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.d

51 At that moment the curtain of the templee was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks splitf 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy cityg and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guardingh Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

so these guys were terrified and then decided to pierce the side of the christian god? be honest, who reading mark on its own would come to the conclusion that jesus was PIERCED?

I might add, gLuke:

gLuke 23

Quote:

44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

47 The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” 48 When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.

There is nothing like this in gJohn, sotto voce. They think he's dead, they lance him with a spear, and lo and behold, he was still alive!

Chili · 01-25-2012, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

[

Quote:

44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

47 The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” 48 When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.

There is nothing like this in gJohn. They think he's dead, they lance him with a spear, and lo and behold, he was still alive!

Yes but John is the material twin of Luke to make that known.

ApostateAbe · 01-25-2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Point #4 I think is a good one. They don't break his legs because they think he is dead and they spear him to make sure he is dead?

That's not in the text.

And yet it seems to be the best explanation.

la70119 · 01-25-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

He was, at least in gJohn.

John 19

The sudden flow of blood and water shows he was still ALIVE.

And that was Matthews problem who so never died.

It was Mark and Luke's problem as well. Tertullian in Against Praxeas 30 decided that he commended his spirit and so willed himself to death. Yet skirts so close to what Catholics would call heresy, in that Jesus had not really died. To get around this, Tert says Jesus actually died, but the Spirit never left the body. Confused? I am too; Tertullian makes NO SENSE.

la70119 · 01-25-2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Yes but John is the material twin of Luke to make that known.

WHERE is John the material twin of Luke?

Toto · 01-25-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Yes but John is the material twin of Luke to make that known.

WHERE is John the material twin of Luke?

Only in Chili's surrealistic psycho-theology.

You might notice that none of the regulars engage with Chili.

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