Toto

The concept of meme has nothing to do with demons.Demons are an alternative, supernatural explanation for physical phenomena that we think of as caused by impersonal scientific laws.

I fail to see how these concepts have anything to do with each other, much less how meme theory can turn ancient superstions into just metaphors masking rational thought.

Elijah

Aren't concepts of God actually memes? Can't they be destructive and confuse the minds of men? Don't they move from people to people and can only be expressed through the person and not physically themselves? What's the difference between a meme and a demon again? And why should I assume they had a cartoon understanding of what was going on? Because their art showed pictures of demons so they must have took that artistic representation literally right? Here's hoping in a few millenia they don't think we are equally as stupid for believing the supernatural ghost of Uncle Sam was looking after this nation and her people.

Some daemons represent natural laws because they are associated with forces in nature and stuff like love. Other daemons represent flawed/fallen ideas or ideas that are conceived from the nature of matter and not the nature of the spiritual.

Edit: Also did you notice the reference to Plato's ideals on the meme wiki. Not exactly right but neat that in the middle of this conversation about demons and memes you put up a page that is associating the guy who is credited with starting up with the daemon concept and dawkin's memes.

Amaleq13

Not if one is genuinely interested in having one's beliefs challenged.

I already did. You chose to ignore it. :banghead:

Amaleq13

It is specious and anachronistic from beginning to end.

There simply is no room for it in Tatian's efforts to explain the nature of independent, sentient, and evil entities he clearly believes literally exist and interact with humans.

Elijah

I need a reason to change my beliefs, not just because someone says so even if its a whole bunch of somebodies.

No I honestly missed it. If you think you can illustrate my logic fallacies in wanting to have evidence before I interpret a writer superstitiously or have a logical way to decide if it should be interpreted superstitiously then please repost it.

Amaleq13

You'll never recognize a reason through tinted glasses.

Then do the honest thing and review the thread.

Elijah

Sure I will because I have Reason tinted glasses on while you have superstitions nonsense silly goggles on.

Do the polite thing and save me the effort.

Toto

I wouldn't call a philosophical or theological concept of god a meme. Religion can be a meme, religious practices, etc.

I think that Dawkins would include religious ideas and practices as memes.

Demons are imaginary beings. Memes are a modern scientific concept that attempts to make sense of irrational human behavior.

I see your confusion now. A demon is the term that someone who believes in supernatural demons would use to describe the irrational forces that seem to control his world. Meme is the term that a modern nonbeliever would use to describe the supernaturalists belief in these demonic forces.

Because they did not have a modern understanding of what was going on. They really believed in spirits and ghosts and demons. They lived in a demon haunted world.

Why would you assume that they had such a modern understanding?

I am sure that they are going to think that we were equally stupid about some things - such as thinking that divine providence is looking after us. But I don't think you can find any 20th century writings about Uncle Sam as an active agent that you would be forced to interpret as allegorical.

Your source for this?

The wiki page says: The talk page for this section attacks the whole idea of memes.

Elijah

Why wouldn’t you call the concept of God a meme but religion you would?
But the discussion we are having is about events that supposedly happened in reality at a time when memes obviously did exist. They aren’t describing imaginary beings but forces at work in the universe.

Memes are trying to describe how ideas move change evolve and influence people. If you think that Dawkins was the first person to notice this you are crazy. He was the first one to successfully fuse the growth and movement of ideas to the concept of evolution. You’d figure that the fact that we relate our ideas to how animals evolve today would be an easy transition to why they spoke of their ideas like spiritual animals in the minds of man then, but no.

This from a comment earlier to Andrew
How can those not sound like memeplexes to you? How can you hear Spirit of Glory and think supernatural entity?

I’m not confused; I’m just not convinced your position is based on facts.

Beyond your obvious supernatural understanding of spirits what makes them different judging from the text in Mark.

I understand you think of them as supernatural but from their nature in the text what is the difference from a meme?

(From last statement) Yes and that’s why memes/demons are blamed for making people worship false gods or other demons/memes.

They didn’t have a modern understanding but it’s irrational to assume a completely irrational belief based on literal understandings of their artistic representations.

The texts that have been presented have shown that the spirit world was probably more like a philosophical idealist’s version of spirit than a nonsense superstitious spirit that is being assumed.
Because the philosophy of the time speaks of spirit in a non superstitious way so it’s safe to assume others in the time understood it rationally as well. I think it’s you imposing the modern view of the uneducated today who do believe in superstitious demons on the educated who were trying to explain the world rationally then. You should learn to recognize your counterparts in the past… none of us are anything new to history.

Uncles Sam was/is a comic book hero for DC. Who knows Highway to Heaven may be all that’s left to base their opinion on.
The three texts relating to daemons that have been presented in this conversation. All have been from platonically influenced philosophical individuals, not superstitious religious wack jobs who believe in impossible beings.
Yea they should because it’s incorrect, a meme can be a daemon and a daemon can be an ideal but memes and ideals are different. IMO I was trying to illustrate that I’m not just throwing out craziness.

Craigart14

I, too, object. As an atheist, I do complain about Christian superstition, but only insofar as it is imposed on the rest of us against our will, which in no way implies approval of any other superstition. I don't worry much about New Agers, Wiccans, or other "pagans" because they are now exactly what born-again Christians were a few decades ago: a tiny, marginalized subculture, without political power and, so far as I can tell, without political ambition.

Craig