stuart shepherd

Really Great Observation!
I like it. I'll probably tell this story to impress my friends.
Maybe I can work it into my dump Jesus lecture.

Thanks
Start Shepherd

Toto

The Wizard of Oz is a highly symbolic story with Theosophical underpinnings.

The Wizard of Oz Should be in Every Atheist's Movie Collection

stuart shepherd

Dear Toto,
I want to thank you for making that link available.
Fantastic...the guy who wrote that post is a genius.
I have watched the movie several times in the past and enjoyed it on a superficial level. Now I think I will watch it again with my family so we can look into the deeper meaning.

I suppose that you use the name Toto because of the movie. Very appropriate name for a moderator.

Thanks

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd

THE EMPTY TOMB
Jesus was buried outside the city.

Hebrews 13:11-13(King James Version)
11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

As you can see from this Scripture, Jesus was executed outside the city of Jerusalem.

The next Scripture informs us that Jesus was buried in a tomb near where he was executed outside the city.

John 19:41(King James Version)
41Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

The first night that Jesus was in the tomb, outside the city, was a Sabbath and the Jews were all at home inside the city..
The Sabbath keeping Jews were at home.
Exodus 16:29(King James Version)
29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

The Gates to Jerusalem were closed. on the Sabbath.

Nehemiah 13:19(King James Version)
19And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

Now this is the most important Scripture…….

The guard on the tomb was not in place until the following night. The first night the tomb was unguarded.

Matthew 27:62-64(King James Version)
Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

So the first night that Jesus was in the tomb,......
the tomb was outside the city of Jerusalem
the Jews were all in their homes for the Sabbath
the gates to the city were closed
the tomb was unguarded

In circumstances like these, any nefarious men could have opened the tomb, removed Jesus' body, and closed the tomb to hide that they had removed the corpse without any interference from anyone else.

Now I can only speculate on who may have removed Jesus' corpse or why they removed Jesus‘ corpse. But there are many logical reasons why Jesus‘ corpse was removed.

The first night in the tomb, Jesus‘ corpse was unguarded, the tomb was outside the city, the city gates were locked, the Jews were all at home for the Sabbath, and anyone could have removed Jesus dead body.


Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd

If you have read Post#174 on this thread, you know that on the first night that Jesus’ corpse was in the tomb, the tomb was unguarded, it was outside the city of Jerusalem, and the Jews were all in their homes, with the city gates locked because it was the Sabbath.

Anyone who desired to remove Jesus’ corpse by removing the stone at the entrance, removing the corpse, and then replacing the stone to conceal their entry, would have had unfettered access to the tomb. With everyone at home for the Sabbath, and the city closed, and the tomb unguarded outside the city, anyone could have removed Jesus’ corpse.

The question asked by Christians is often….”Who would have wanted to remove Jesus’ corpse?”

We do not know who removed the corpse. We can only speculate on who might have had a motive for removing Jesus ‘ corpse.

One possibility is that the corpse was removed by the zealots.

Even one of Jesus’ own Apostles was a zealot.

Mark 3:14-18 (New American Standard Bible)
14And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach,
15and to have authority to cast out the demons.
16And He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter),
17and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, "Sons of Thunder");
18and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot;

Wikipedia describes the zealots as armed men who sought to incite the Jews to revolt against the Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot


The Zealots were a Jewish political movement in the 1st century which sought to incite the people of Iudaea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the country by force of arms during the Great Jewish Revolt (CE 66-70). When the Romans introduced the imperial cult, the Jews unsuccessfully rebelled. The Zealots continued to oppose the Romans due to Rome's intolerance of their culture and on the grounds that Israel belonged only to a Jewish king descended from King David.

It seems reasonable, that the zealots, armed desperate men, probably heard that Jesus had predicted that he would rise from the dead, and that some Jews believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Their plan may have been to remove Jesus’ corpse and spread rumors that he had risen from the dead in order to excite the masses of Jewish people into believing that the Messianic age was at hand, and all that was required was to revolt and drive the Romans from their land.

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd

More Information on the Empty Tomb

The first night in the tomb, Jesus‘ corpse was unguarded, the tomb was outside the city, the city gates were locked, the Jews were all at home for the Sabbath, and anyone could have removed Jesus’ dead body. [See post # 174 on this thread]

In circumstances like these, any nefarious men could have opened the tomb, removed Jesus' body, and closed the tomb to hide that they had removed the corpse without any interference from anyone else.

Now I can only speculate on who may have removed Jesus' corpse or why they removed Jesus‘ corpse. But there are many logical reasons why Jesus‘ corpse was removed.

In post # 175, I provided logical, reasonable, information to show that the Zealots could have removed Jesus’ corpse, rather than believing that supernaturally, Jesus rose from the dead. Certainly, the reason a body is missing, and a tomb is empty is because someone removed the corpse, rather than believing that miraculously the corpse came back to life.

In this post, I will speculate on another theory why Jesus’ body was missing from his empty tomb, as an alternate theory to the Christian theory that the tomb was empty because Jesus rose from the dead. After all, nobody saw Jesus rise from the dead.


The Jews were brought up with stories of the miracles of the ten plagues upon Egypt, the talking snake in Genesis, Balaam’s talking donkey, the sun standing still in the sky for Joshua, and a myriad of other miracles that they were assured were absolutely true by their leaders and teachers. Here is a particular event, that although it is ridiculous to the reasonable mind, it was believed to be true by the Jews of Jesus’ day.

The point of this Scripture, believed to be God’s Truth by the Jews, was that the dead bones of a Holy man could bring a dead man back to life from being dead. With this thought in mind, examine these words of Jesus that he preached to the Jews of his day.

In light of Jesus’ words, and the beliefs of the Jews, isn’t it possible that a cult who had heard Jesus’ words that he was the bread of life, and that whoever ate his flesh and drank his blood, would have eternal life, stole Jesus’ corpse and ate his flesh and drank his blood.? I know this sounds unusual but don’t Christians symbolically eat and drink Jesus every Sunday? Perhaps a cult accepted Jesus’ words literally, removed his corpse from the tomb, and ate it, thinking that the body of this “holy man” would give them eternal life. After all, this would have been consistent with what they were taught from the Scriptures.

As unappetizing and distasteful this may sound, IMO, it seems more reasonable than believing that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.


Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd

Another Alternative to the Christian “Empty Tomb” Theory

According to the Gospel stories, on Easter morning, the tomb that Jesus was buried in was found to be empty. Accordingly, Christians have fashioned an “empty tomb” theory whereby they believe that the tomb was empty because the occupant, Jesus, was resurrected. It seems ridiculous to me to believe that an empty tomb means the occupant was resurrected. When a dead body is missing it seems more logical to believe that the dead body was removed by unknown persons.

In post # 174, I explained……

So the first night that Jesus was in the tomb,......
the tomb was outside the city of Jerusalem
the Jews were all in their homes for the Sabbath
the gates to the city were closed
the tomb was unguarded

In circumstances like these, any nefarious men could have opened the tomb, removed Jesus' body, and closed the tomb to hide that they had removed the corpse without any interference from anyone else.

In subsequent posts # 175 and # 176, I explained possible alternate theories to the Christian “empty tomb” theory, which IMO are reasonable explanations as opposed to the unreasonable, supernatural, Christian theory that Jesus was resurrected. In this post I will explain another reasonable Alternative to the Christian “Empty Tomb” Theory.

The first night in the tomb, when Jesus‘ tomb was unguarded, outside the city, while the Jews were all at home for the Sabbath, the Samaritans could have removed Jesus’ corpse from the tomb. The Samaritans were enemies of the Jews and along with means and opportunity, the Samaritans had a motive for removing Jesus’ body from the tomb and concealing the fact that they had stolen the corpse.

The following link to Wikipedia explains the Samaritans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan

In the Gospel according to John, it is evident that the Samaritans were enemies of the Jews because the Jews seek to insult Jesus by calling him a Samaritan.

The following passage from the Gospel according to Luke also indicates that the Jews and Samaritans were enemies.

Jesus may have had some early success proselytizing the Samaritan woman at the well, but he also forbid his Apostles from entering any city of the Samaritans.

So what motive might the Samaritans have in stealing Jesus’ dead body?

As enemies of the Jews and Romans, they may have believed that by removing Jesus’ corpse at this Passover festival they could create the illusion among the superstitious that Jesus rose from the dead as he said he would, and create unrest among the Jews and thus the Romans would react and armed conflict might lead to war between the enemies of the Samaritans.

Stuart Shepherd

stuart shepherd

More Alternatives to the Christian Empty Tomb Theory

If a tomb is discovered to be empty, does it mean that the former occupant was resurrected?
The Christians seem to think so. According to their empty tomb theory, since Jesus’ tomb was found empty, Jesus rose from the dead

But reasonable people believe that someone removed the former occupant. Unknown persons removed Jesus’ corpse. In previous posts I explained how others had means, opportunity, and motive for removing Jesus’ corpse from his tomb.

Here is another idea to consider……..

In post # 166, on this thread, I point out that according to the Gospel according to John, Jesus’ corpse was covered with 75 pounds of spices valued at about a half a million dollars.


Wouldn’t $500,000.00 in spices be a prize worthy of grave robbing?
Perhaps thieves entered the tomb, and began removing the wrappings from Jesus’ corpse, and started to harvest the spices. But myrrh is a very resinous, sticky, viscous substance, so they decided to remove the corpse so they could bring it to a place where they would have more time to carefully scrape all the spices from the dead body. Then the thieves replaced the stone on the tomb to conceal the fact that they had robbed the grave, and left with Jesus’ corpse and the spices.

Stuart Shepherd

FireBrandon

Nice points Stuart

I just read Richard Carrier's chapter in The Empty Tomb entitled "The Plausibility of theft." He rebuts objections to the theft of Jesus' body very nicely. I would definitely recommend the book to anyone studying the Resurrection.

He points out that necromancers often stole bodies of holy men to use in rituals. Also in even the Gospels themselves the women seem to suspect that maybe the gardener took the body or knew who took the body...

He wrote a lot more that I can't recall right now. I'll summarize it soon if I can.

Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave. Prometheus Books. http://www.prometheusbooks.com/catalog/book_1681.html

stuart shepherd

Thank you so much for bringing that material to my attention. You have generated some great ideas for this thread. Thanks

Soon as I finish coloring my Easter eggs I will take a closer look.

Stuart Shepherd