Chili

Yes, I read the first part and knew the story.

In religion we find that "like god" extrapolates from "Lord God" to make "God" known to the rest of the world.

In scientific terms this means that in our impoverished human condition we must extrapolate our science from omniscience to make this world a better place to live.

smithy

This word only applies to God himself, anything or anyone has
it's limit.

Nothing other
than the source of creation be eternal.

neither do I, I understand you well.

Follower of Christ

This is my standard Hell arguement.
I dont know if it will help or not


HELL IS NOT THE GRAVE

There are at least two words in the NT for grave

One is the common grave, the other is rendered as hell or hades

If it meant just death and being put into the grave, Im sure they would have left it at that

Heres the one that isnt just the common grave
Interesting. Tormented in the grave (hades)


heres the one that is the common grave

The arguement that it means grave is invalid
Not even toying with the language can get one out of this one

If they had meant wed end up in a tomb to stay, then there was no reasong to go beyond just Taphos or to add all the many desciptions of eternal punishment


GEHENNA


Some argue that Jesus is talking about the valley of Himnon and nothing more.
That it wont be eternal

The problem here lies in that Jesus give a new warning when He speaks of this Valley of Himnon, or Gehenna (geenna)

The difference in this valley of Himnon will be that the fire will not be quenched or extinguished
Taking this in context with the following shows us what will be


ETERNAL PUNISHMENT

Some like to argue that the greek says that those there will only be there for an ''age'' becuase of the greek

Here we have the sheeps and the goats going into their respcctive destinies.

Eternal both times in that passage is
For those of you trying to argue the word means ''age''
THAT word in THAT passage means no such thing

HERE is the word you are looking for and keep relying on.

G166 Aionios is the word in the given passage
BOTH timeframes given are ''everlasting''


PUNISHMENT in that passage is just that
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT
EVERLASTING CORRECTION


we see these passages about punishment




HEBREW OLAM (AGE/EVERLASTING)


Some argue that the word ''olam'' is rendered incorrectly into the greek and then into english and that it SHOULD be closer to ''aion'' (age) instead of "aionios"(perpetual)

The Hebrew olam is this
Obviously it can be rendered as period of time, or perpetuity. Forever.
One has to take context into account at this point
Not just the context of hell in the immediate passage, but look to all scipture and see what the pattern is

Here again, Jesus speaks about this place Gehenna, the valley of Himnon
Again we see the warning, it is repeated over and over
THIS time the fire wont go out
THIS time, the worms wont die
It will be eternal

Taking that and other passages on punishment, such as;
We see that taking alll things together about punishment, that the only compatible way to render ''olam'' in the context of hell/second death/lake of fire is to accept that it is meant in these cases to mean ''eternal''



PASSAGES ON HELL


Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever gets angry with his brother without cause will be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Empty-head!' will be liable to the council. But whoever says, ' fool!' will be liable to the fiery hell.



Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is better for you that one of your members be lost, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is better for you that one of your members be lost, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell.


Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut them off and cast them from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, than having two hands or two feet, to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be thrown into the fiery hell.



Mat 23:33 Serpents! Brood of vipers! How shall you escape from the condemnation of hell?



Mar 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It would be better for you to enter into life maimed, than to enter having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
Mar 9:44 where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Mar 9:45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It would be better for you to enter into life lame, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
Mar 9:46 where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Mar 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It would be better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into the fiery hell,
Mar 9:48 where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'



Luk 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who after He kills, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!



Jam 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. Thus the tongue is set among our members, as that which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.


Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'



Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened the books. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by the things having been written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.



Mat 13:36 Then having dismissed the crowds, Jesus went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Mat 13:37 He answered and said to them: "He that sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 And the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the evil one.
Mat 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 Therefore just as the tares are gathered and burned with fire, thus it will be at the end of this age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who work iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Luk 13:24 Strive to enter through the narrow gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and answering He will say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from.'
Luk 13:26 Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
Luk 13:27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out.



Rev 19:20 Then the Beast was apprehended, and with him the False Prophet who had performed the signs before him, by which he had deceived those who received the mark of the Beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Rev 20:10 EMTV And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where also the Beast and the False Prophet are. And they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.



Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.



Mat 25:31 "And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left.
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Biff the unclean

Which brings up the obvious question, FoC, if you believe God exists AND you believe that He sends your fellow humans to Hell why do you support Him? If you really believe in this Hell it means that God is a monster. Worshiping such a non-human monster would make you a traitor to your own species.

Jedi Mind Trick

Yeah,
Wow! what a glorious gospel of good news. God sends to H-E-Double-Hockeysticks 1000 of his human creatures just so he can have the "free will" love of just one. But is that one "saint" really loving this god or is it that this one "saint" just doesn’t want to end up like the 1000?

Duck!

It doesn't help me. I'm sure it doesn't help 99% of other atheists either.

How likely is it that your argument, based on quotes from a book(s) atheists consider about as a reliable guide to truth as you do the Mahabharata, is going to convince them of anything? All you're really doing is offering your interpretation of something in the Bible, not an argument that any atheist will be persuaded by.

I'm always bemused at the arguments that go on at these forums where Biblical quote after Biblical quote are thrown at atheists, when the people throwing the quotes around know that the people they're trying persuade have no faith whatsoever in the source of the quotes.


Duck!

Jedi Mind Trick

FoC,
Next time you are talking to yourself... Uh... I mean your god, would you tell him that I, little, did not choose to be made a human with this "free will" noose around my neck, and if he wouldn’t mind it, could he rewind my life and make me into say... a Chimp? :huh:

Hey, a dolphin would be kind of neat too.

P.S.
If this request is not acceptable I would be willing to downgrade to a monkey or a squirrel.

Follower of Christ

In my mind hell isnt the answer. Annihilation is what I would probably go with.....either that or just letting you all live eternity like you want.

Peronally, I want my creator.
the descriptions of that place and being able to know the One that created it all is much more desirable for me than spending an eternity on a golfcourse or whatever.

The problem is this.
If the God of the bible exists (I believe He does), and if Jesus wasnt some madman, then hell and punishement exist and theres little I can do about them.

My only option would be get an attitude with my Creator and deny Him.
Sorry, but I cant find it within myself to do it.
Ive thought about hell and tried to feel differently, but something inside me just wont allow me to do it.

Thats not an acceptable answer, I know, but thats about all there is.

Follower of Christ

Dont know.
Ive seen some come out of fear and then really fall in love with Christ.
Maybe there are some who never get beyond that.

But check this out.
FAITH is whats required.
We must beleive.

This person who comes to Christ over fear of hell sure is showing a firm belief Id say.

Duck!

So why bother with the rationalisations if all it boils down to is "You just have to believe it to believe it!"?


Duck!