jules?

It is quite different although i am sure conclusions will merge and the very nature of discussing christian beginnings means the subject is constrained, my point and question is that given it was an end of the world cult; is it not possible that peace/and threat of war generated an evironment for the fearful to rush into the arms of this new spin on an old jewish cult. My problem is with the lack of mobility amongst the early christians as well as the missionary nature of the cult and this ended up manifesting across a very large empire.

mountainman

The indication is that Paul's letters are probable
forgeries. How many were there in the beginning?
How many left? Is anyone keeping score of the
Pauline forgeries, and the canonical non-forgeries?

Is it 4 left standing out of 14?



Best wishes,



Pete Brown

jules?

well the four nicely tie in with Revelation giving at least one picture of neo-Judaism but the number of forgeries suggest to me that by the the 2nd century the cult of xstianity was widespread and creating interest amongst those who wished to see it develop in a certain direction. My interest is not so much who was manipulating the faith but what was the social and political environment that led people to adopt this faith

Jules

Huon

I am not convinced by the argument "lack of mobility". I learnt that, during the Middle Ages (roughly 900-1400) many people could undertake pilgrimages, on foot, to places very far away, even Jerusalem. When there is a will, there is a cart...

OneInFundieville

No connection? No correlation whatsoever? I'm gonna call you on that. Evidence please that ideas propogate random to their veracity.

No Robots

A sense of impending doom and salvation was present in the psyche of the time:

The Father banished virtue shall restore,
And crimes shall threat the guilty world no more.
The son shall lead the life of gods, and be
By gods and heroes seen, and gods and heroes see.
The jarring nations he in peace shall bind,
And with paternal virtues rule mankind.
Unbidden earth shall wreathing ivy bring,
And fragrant herbs (the promises of spring),
As her first off'rings to the infant king.

--Virgil

Amaleq13

You are unfamiliar with any false beliefs that have spread quickly and/or refused to die out? How can you use the internet and be ignorant of the plentiful successful scams, false claims, and utterly nutty conspiracy theories?

It is a fact that false beliefs spread rapidly and refuse to die out.

That fact, alone, is sufficient to contradict the notion that there is a connection between the speed with which a belief grows or the tenacity with which the belief is held.

This is nothing but basic logic.

jules?

I am not saying the ability to travel was lacking in fact during Roman times travelling from Britain to palistine would have been even easier and much safer and quicker. But pilgrimage was not nessarily [perhaps not at all] an aspect of early christian life, what it was not was the extensive traveling of troops from one end of the empire to the other carrying Mithra which grew at a similar pace and in a similar time frame to xstianity. Rodney Stark, rise of xstian etc, implies it was popular amongst merchants, but I am onlyy reading snipppets of this work and may have got it wrong, more in the next post addressing stark.

jules?

I could not get a copy of Stark from my local library so i have tried to glean the key points from reviews and a like, so if I get any wrong do put me right.

Even though Stark is a raving creationist he appears to making some resonable points, by far the best and one that I failed to acknowledge [for some reason, in the past] is the 165- 180 Antonine Plague and the Plague of Cyprian a hundred years later. The fact that the first came back with troops after border war with Partha, making a Cold war both warm and accompanied by one of the horseman of the apocalypse does point to a distinct time of uncertainty. add the usual number of fires that appear to have broken out in roman cities and its is enough for anyone to prepare for eternal bliss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Plague

whether christians survived plagues any better is another matter and the lack of the book means I cant make a judgement.

"that a plague was brought upon the earth after the Christian religion came into the world, and after it revealed the mysteries of hidden truth? But pestilences, say my opponents, and droughts, wars, famines, locusts, mice, and hailstones, and other hurtful things, by which the property of men is assailed, the gods bring upon us, incensed as they are by your wrong-doings and by your transgressions." (Adversus gentes 1.3)

perhaps christians stayed in cities rather than flee [like the pagans] because they all sat around waiting for the end, but also looked after their own.

The communist nature of the early faith is something I acknowledged before and seems to be a real strength and a reaction to the class war of the empire. I am reading Apocalypse: The Great Jewish Revolt Against Rome by Neil Faulkner (or via: amazon.co.uk) that asserts the revolution was an underclass movement led by jewish apocalyptic sects. The Essene appear to be communist with equality for all although the stricter were looking to remain virginal so as to get into the top 144 thousand. so it seems logical that the social revolution would be readly exported. The modern comparison is HAMAS which is both working for revolution and a new Islamic age as well as providing welfare to the poorest areas. [a great place to recruit]

Stark does attribute the spread [do tell me if i got this wrong] to middle class merchant classes and growth to healthy women giving birth after 18 and living in a caring environment whilst ensnaring pagan men. Both areas that I would need to read up on in detail.

Toto

Raving Creationist? He's a sociologist.