spin

This was one of the arguments of Treves for his servant being Onias III. And it's not strange that it's the last servant passage in the text. When the servant died, there wasn't too much else to say that wasn't said in 52:13-53:12.


spin

redzrx

The Hebrew Translation (Not the Greek) to english of 53:12

Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will [continue to] intercede for the transgressors.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53d.html

Mario

spin

53:12 (JPS) Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And most modern xian translations are directly from the Hebrew as well, and they all have the past tense.



spin

JPS = Jewish Publishing Society

Bernard Muller

2nd Isaiah was probably written in stages, after the death of Cyrus and before the reconstruction of the temple under Darius, within a 10 years period. It was a period of despair for the Jew who came back, trying to rebuild their nation and Jerusalem, facing hostility from the local Persian authorities and Gentiles, still dominant in Judea.
There are too many human-like characteristics in the suffering servant to consider him as not a man. The author had him to be a "miserable", ugly, deformed, sorry, grieving, despised but righteous Jew. He probably existed then, known to many, but dead by now, likely by execution because of not defending himself on some unjustified offence. Anyway, this one was deemed to suck up the sins of the Jews then in Judea, because of his apparent silent "martyrdom"/"sacrifice".

The message is clear at the end of 'Isaiah': stay Jews, do not worry about your sins (but repentance is required), they will be taken away from you and you'll deserve the future glory of Zion, starting at the next chapter, 54.
This suffering servant could have been used as a sure sign of great things to come and definitively as absorbing the sins of others.

Best regards, Bernard

redzrx

Yes it is written in past tense.. that is the one of the ways jews look at prophesy .. example I was given is since it is Apr 5 2004 now the prophesy is read as if the prophet was speaking at the time or just after the prophesy took place. example june 5 2004(if thats when the prohesy happened).

Now spin I say this again this is not my opinion but the jewish interpretation.
Please read some of the jewish sites and at least give them a chance rather than dismiss them as Apologetic.

Mario

spin

You missed the comments on the subject of tense in the servant passages.

Read books if you want scholarship, books that show that they come from responsible publishers commited to scholarly standards. And that's hard enough. The web is no substitute for sound methodology. To use the web you need to know your subject well enough to cut through the crap.

This is probably my last post to you in the subject.


spin

LP675

I am fascinated by this passage, and I am intrigued by Christian answers to this question (which have to grapple with the issue of how to interpret what the NT regards as ‘messianic passages’ in their own context). I asked William Dumbrell what he thought about it, and he seemed to be saying the servant was in the immediate context ‘faithful Israel’, and (I may be misrepresenting him here) the passage in the light of the rest of the bible is messianic. I personally don’t have a problem believing the passage is a straight messianic oracle.

LP

redzrx

I agree with the web having a lot of conflicting Ideas.. I:E Crap.

Bible unearthed is my next read..

Thanx for the direction ..

Mario