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Old 11-26-2007, 12:20 PM   #21
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I've read a few of his books, and I find him to be excellent.

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:29 PM   #22
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Lets have a look at what he says on Gospels and the ancient novel on pp. 214-225 in Deconstructing Jesus, shall we?
OK, let's. But that is 11 pages, plus not all of us have the book handy. Could you perhaps, remembering that this is a discussion group, open the discussion by summarizing the problem(s) you have with what Price says on those pages?

Gerard Stafleu
There's the question of whether the parallels he sees between the novels and the gospels are forced, the issue of the late dates of the novels he sees the Gospel paralleling, the ignoring of the differences between the Gospels and the novels, as well as the fact of how late he has to date the gospels in order make more likely one of the conditions that are necessary to establish the likelihood of the Gospels drawing from the novels -- namely, the Gospels' and the novels' contemporeanity.

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:30 PM   #23
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I've read a few of his books, and I find him to be excellent.

Ray
Compared to what?

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:34 PM   #24
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I've read a few of his books, and I find him to be excellent.

Ray
Compared to what?

Jeffrey
What can I say? He's fun and thought-provoking, and he's not afraid to ask hard questions. After decades in various Christian circles, I find that very refreshing.

How he chalks up compared to other biblical academics, I'm not in a position to say.

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:36 PM   #25
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OK, let's. But that is 11 pages, plus not all of us have the book handy. Could you perhaps, remembering that this is a discussion group, open the discussion by summarizing the problem(s) you have with what Price says on those pages?

Gerard Stafleu
There's the question of whether the parallels he sees between the novels and the gospels are forced, the issue of the late dates of the novels he sees the Gospel paralleling, the ignoring of the differences between the Gospels and the novels, as well as the fact of how late he has to date the gospels in order make more likely one of the conditions that are necessary to establish the likelihood of the Gospels drawing from the novels -- namely, the Gospels' and the novels' contemporeanity.

Jeffrey
OK, but surely one has to admit that the similarity between these comtemporary novels and the gospels needed to be brought to the general public. Price is the first place that I became aware of these parallels.

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:41 PM   #26
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It seems like a lot of what Price does is offer possibilities to be considered. Without making definitive pronouncements. He seems to say "what if" this is what happened, then provides information to supplement the argument.
Which is something that, as e.g., George Montague notes in his CBQ review of Deconstructing Jesus (CBQ 63 [Jan 2001]: p. 160-161), lies at the heart of the question of the trustworthiness of his Price's methodology and conclusions:


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Pushing Guard's template of mimetic twins to the ultimate, P. runs various characters together: "If Judas Iscariot is Judas the Zealot, and if Simon Peter is Simon the Zealot; if Judas is one of the brothers of Jesus, and if Simon is another, then we might take another look at the epithet, `Judas of Simon Iscariot' (John 13:2), which could as easily denote `Judas, brother of Simon' as `Judas, son of Simon'"(p. 131). And Simon the leper who hosts Jesus is Simon Peter! Obviously, the texts are being reshuffled here to conform to a pre-established template. Caiphas is Peter accusing Jesus, and Jesus' own disciples put him to death. But Jesus' death may also have been faked, as in so many similar stories from the surrounding world (chap. 7). Finally, P. follows Earl Doherty in holding that the stories about Jesus are midrashic creations from OT precedents rather than actual events of Jesus' life that evoked the OT parallels. Jesus may not have been a historical person at all; in any case, the gospel story itself is pure legend.

Such a sweeping and idiosyncratic conclusion leads one to suspect a flawed methodology. P. is highly selective of the authors he cites, without seriously engaging those who hold opposing views. He piles hypothesis upon hypothesis, and while he repeatedly uses qualifiers like "I suspect," "my guess is that," "could very well have," "it is not difficult to imagine," it is obvious that he is committed to his conclusion that Jesus may never have existed. But this leaves many questions unanswered. If there were such "movements" at the beginning, why did they all claim Jesus? Was Galilee so Hellenized that there were no Pharisees there to engage Jesus prior to the fall of the temple? (Archaeology now indicates that the much-touted Sepphoris, four miles from Nazareth, was predominantly Jewish in the first century.) And why is it not equally possible that the later "orthodox" interpretation was, at least in part, a call to return to the original understanding (as seems to be the concern of Matthew in upholding the original disciples, over against emerging false prophets, as the ones who understood the master's teachings)? Why, indeed, would the first generation martyr-disciples have given their lives for a myth someone had concocted?

In passing, P. derides church-committed narrative critics whose "'literary' study of the gospels has served from the first as a diversionary route of escape from engagement with the troubling questions of genuine historical criticism" (p. 224). For P. meaning is simply historical meaning-as he has understood it. For the questions it raises the book has value; but to recover the historical Jesus, to the limited extent that that is possible, it will not do to indulge in reductionism to pre-established models or exegesis by fantasy.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:44 PM   #27
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There's the question of whether the parallels he sees between the novels and the gospels are forced, the issue of the late dates of the novels he sees the Gospel paralleling, the ignoring of the differences between the Gospels and the novels, as well as the fact of how late he has to date the gospels in order make more likely one of the conditions that are necessary to establish the likelihood of the Gospels drawing from the novels -- namely, the Gospels' and the novels' contemporeanity.

Jeffrey
OK, but surely one has to admit that the similarity between these comtemporary novels and the gospels needed to be brought to the general public. Price is the first place that I became aware of these parallels.

Ray
The question is whether there is any similarity -- and even if there is, whether it's the Gospels that have influenced the novels and not the other way around.

Please tell me when the particular novels Price adduces as having parallels to the Gospels were written. And please show me that they were popular/known in the areas where we have reason to believe the Gospels were written.

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:52 PM   #28
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He piles hypothesis upon hypothesis, and while he repeatedly uses qualifiers like "I suspect," "my guess is that," "could very well have," "it is not difficult to imagine"
Seems vaguely familiar - trying to put my finger on where I might have seen this type of approach before - on here, even, maybe (and no, I'm not implying it's from you).

Cheers,

V.
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:04 PM   #29
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Compared to what?

Jeffrey
What can I say? He's fun and thought-provoking, and he's not afraid to ask hard questions. After decades in various Christian circles, I find that very refreshing.
That's good. But then again, perhaps if you had been in different circles it wouldn't have seemed so.

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How he chalks up compared to other biblical academics, I'm not in a position to say.
Too bad since how he does "chalk up" is exactly what is at issue here.

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Old 11-26-2007, 01:05 PM   #30
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There's the question of whether the parallels he sees between the novels and the gospels are forced, the issue of the late dates of the novels he sees the Gospel paralleling
But I don't think Price is claiming direct borrowing. I could be wrong, but the point I see Price making is that many of the ideas presented in the gospels seemed to be floating around as popular general concepts during that era.
So even if Price cites a work that is thought to be post-gospel, it's still an example of how a similar concept existed during that time.

Actually, I found Price's arguments that many of the gospel passages were derivative of the LXX to be more convincing than above item. Not that I'm an expert or anything. Just stating what made sense to me as I read it.

Michael
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