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Old 03-02-2012, 04:36 PM   #31
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To single them out as "apostles" who were in Christ before the person whose revelation was direct from Christ, yet the veteran apostles never deserved an expression of admiration or praise?!
Sure, why not. Sounds like he is accepting an Academy Award. "And I'd like to thank... Oh darn, I forgot Peter and James!"

Here is most of Romans 16.
Rom 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae...

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. 4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

..
The writer of Acts also mentions Priscilla and Aquila in Acts 18:2-3

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And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome.

Interestingly, the Roman Historian, Suetonius, gives us the following account in Lives of the Twelve Casesars;


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"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [ Claudius ] expelled them [the Jews] from Rome".
Other edicts by Claudius has him forbidding Jews from Syria or Egypt entering the city of Alexandria lest helping to "forment a general plague which infests the whole world."

Salomon Reinach views that this latter edict of Claudius is a reference to the unrest that Jewish believers in Yeshua have caused when confronting their non-believing jewish counterparts. (Source: Christianity Under Claudius by F.F. Bruce)
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:52 PM   #32
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Of course it was the same person and what Paul is telling us here is that it is not possible to change the heart of those who already claim to know Christ as that removes the 'thief in the night' image that he presented to them as gentile. I essence he is saying that it is not possible to change the heart of man if the mind is the blockade to get there.
Ler me clarify this if you please. If the word Christ is already part of our vocabulary it is a blockade to penetrate the soul, as that makes re-cognition a priory and so 'the night' is already gone. Rather we be like Nicodemus and say 'huh' instead, and ponder what that word actually means. Of course no one will believe this here and that is just fine with me, but I would consider that word like 'a wolf' in the mind of man that preempts all goodness in His name and sin becomes its enemy, while without that word 'sin has no meaning' and will abound until the Law comes alive in us, and then we are ready for Paul.

IOW free and carfee we must play with no rational concept of sin to hold us back . . . except maybe that 'my mother' told me so (and who is she? to say!).
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:56 AM   #33
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Yes it's astounding. After all just a little later in Galatians this "paul" is lavishing praise on them.
galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message

Is that enough reverence and praise?
It sounds to me he was dissing them. Especially the phrases "whatever they were makes no difference to me" and "they added nothing to my message."
Yes I'd agree. I was trying to communicate to Duvduv this, as he seemed to be suggesting that paul had some obligation to give them some special reverence.
But if we accept that Galatians is from paul then this is obviously not the case.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:39 AM   #34
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The apostles in Jerusalem were not apostles to gentiles,
What was Cephas doing dining with gentiles in Antioch ? (Gal 2:11-14)

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but they must have gotten their revelation from somewhere of equal value about which Paul never mentions a word at all. And they most certainly must have been of greater importance than Junias and Androcinus.
There is a problem with the term 'apostle' and how it was used in Paul's time. Paul, (but more likely first the James' congregation) seems to have modified the accepted meaning of the term which was used for emissaries collecting the temple tax from Jews in diaspora. In Paul's writing however the semantic focus is not 'apostoloi' as representatives of the Jerusalem temple authority, but 'apostoloi' directly from God. Rom 10:15 seems to indicate that in Paul's mind the 'apostolic' status is directly informed by the mission to preach the gospel. Paul himself 'sends' (the greek verb 'apostelein') his friends with dispatches to his churches, i.e. groups who recognize his apostolic status. In this he appears to mimick the embassies of James. It is clear also that at some point Paul was accused of being an impostor because he had no affiliation with Jerusalem, whether with the temple hierarchy or the messianic assembly of James which sent out missions and collected voluntary contributions from Jews and their gentile clients. The revelation to go Jerusalem (Gal 2:2) to make arrangements with James, probably relate more to attacks on Paul's legitimacy and credentials as 'apostle' (see eg. 1 Cr 9:1-2, 2 Cor 3:1-3, 2 Cr 11, 2 Cr 12), than to any 'apostolic' conference called by the saints of the Jerusalem church.

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If Paul wants to say that preaching to gentiles (which was now acceptable) had to be first cleared with him, then he most certainly was the most important person in the world because he would be able to preach and preselytize to both Jews and gentiles.
Preaching to gentiles was not a novelty in Paul's time. The word 'proselytos' means 'newcomer' or 'convert to Judaism'.

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And lo and behold in Romans 15:19-20 the man whose job it was to preach to the gentiles based on an exclusive revelation in Galatians says he doesn't want to tread on anyone else's territory:

So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.

This cannot possibly be written by the same person who wrote Galatians.
Read carefully what Paul wrote. What he says (in 15:19-20) may be an artful way of affirming that if someone has already preached Christ in the fashion of his gospel his time would not be well spent there. This may well be a suggestion of independent 'apostles' who confirm Paul's teaching. A similar appeal to a larger movement for 'Christ' is in 1 Cr 1:12-13. Paul had the reputation of being 'slick', which he himself acknoweldges (2 Cr 12:16).

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Jiri
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:35 PM   #35
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Jiri, how is "someone else's foundation" relevant to a gospel taught by Paul that goes unmentioned anywhere else?
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Old 03-04-2012, 04:11 PM   #36
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Jiri, how is "someone else's foundation" relevant to a gospel taught by Paul that goes unmentioned anywhere else?
I have just explained to you how I read that. Beyond that, I have no idea what relevance Paul thought the statement may have had, nor for that matter, what you have in mind by saying that Paul's gospel 'goes unmentioned' elsewhere.

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