Chili

Could you please explain what "Christianity proper" means as identified to teach us something?

Pamela Spencer

Islam is based on Genesis of the Old Testament. The narration of Hagar and Ishmael ("modern" Christians regard Ishmael as a "wild" and "hairy" man) was left at an intentional cliffhanger in the pages of the Bible.

The Islaam of Muhammad, naturally stems from the narrative of Hagar and Ishmael found in Genesis (author, Patricia Crone actually defines Islam as "Hagarism"). Thus, the Islaam of the Koran appears to exhibit a certain degree of internal consistency with respect to its development.

Pamela Spencer

You seem to conflate Middle Eastern culture (which is often intertwined with notions of traditional patriarchal arab mindset) with the Islaam of the Koran.

There are no 70 virgins in the Koran--it is nonsense that Wahhabi/Taliban recruiters utilize to exploit the naive youths.

The Jewish-agnostic psychologist, Lesley Hazleton explains this concept very eloquently in the following TED conference presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g

Regarding, women covering their hair----If I'm not mistaken, the Catholic icon, the Virgin Mary appears to be wearing Islamic garb. Modern Muslim attire is essentially the equivalent of classical Jewish fashion.

The idea of eunuchs in paradise is a concept that even atheists would find unappealing and unpalatable.

Chili

It is just metaphysic and has nothing to do with 'book smart,' but just simple physics prior to human error and is very mathemathical.

Nothing to do with veneration of Saints.

Yes it does because Revelation is not first cause in Origin because it is not futuristic to the writer who's words are prior to him by nature and that is second cause in origin and belongs to Mary who is the Queen of angels.

Understand well here that Revelation is not futuristic for Saints in heaven who have arrived there and have their good works to display in Rome as a potlatch form all directions, (please read in Rev.14:13).

I added the 'virgin bit' only to say that God is masculine and you see here now how second cause is effeminate via the woman who presides over the TOL (tree of life) that is juxtaposed by the TOK (tree of knowledge) that is masculine again as the woman was not banned from Eden (sic) . . . and so does not 'pick up her cross' and follow Jesus to get crucified.

All English no?

Chili

I understand, and so is a warp on Judaism but the creation story is where we come full circle and that is Gen.1 where God is prior to the second cause where Lord God was formed after the image created [ex-nihilo] in Gen.1, and so is where God in person is found when we come full circle there and know it for the first time = no history in Genesis 1-3.

Please go to the lineage of Luke and read how this goes past Adam to God. Period.

So to add Genesis beyond Gen.3 just adds fuel to fire and flairs up ignorance as full circle has nothing to do with the Gods of Judaism. It just makes Islam look like Jewish protestants who just do not know, and never will.

Oh, and no thank you, I do not need Islamic theologians (as the 70 virgins tells me enough).

Pamela Spencer

I've actually used the word "Revelation", generally e.g as in Scripture.

"Queen of Angels", interesting. Perhaps, metaphysically, the equivalent of the Koranic title, "Mother of all Nations":

"And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! God hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation."

The Koran states: “O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds” (Quran III:42)

Chili

Oh neet, I like their icons to pervert the minds of children, and that of course is blamed on a millitant wing but is adminstered to all the children.

Yes, and she is white with a light blue veil and may have a battle scar or two.

And I understand and am not against Muslim as persons, with all respect to them. I am into the philosophy of religion, and please keep psychologist out because they will also be an insult to the integrity of Islam just by engaging them.

Show me a philosopher and I will tell you if he is one, or not. Oh, and yes , theologians study theology, do they not?

Chili

Interesting and yes, I do know that they have a woman in there someplace as well. Those lines are fine with me, except the word 'Purified' does not belong and that again is fatal. Remember that She is our Perpetual virgin and the ESSENCE of virginity that so is never defiled to be purified. IOW you can only be a Virgin once and so the word Purified is not angelic in origin . . .and so she was the temple tramp that we call Eve, and she indeed was banned from Eden.

Please understand that this is metaphysics and contains no human error.

Edit to add that Luke never says that God made Mary pure to even hint that she was not sinless too.

Pamela Spencer

I wouldn't be surprised if the expressed (implied or otherwise) discordance that exists between the words, "purity", "perpetuity" and "virginity" is none other than the illusory semantics that have come to overshadow the English translations of the Bible and the Koran. I would imagine that definitions are exceedingly more subtle in their native texts, whether it be in Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, koine Greek or Latin. To "purify again" may or may not indicate the state of "perpetuity" (e.g Perpetual Virgin). The very fact that the Koran (generally regarded by Muslims to be the timeless "Word" of God) confers "Mary" the titular role of "Virgin" seems to indicate a more than seemingly transient role.

Chili

Yes the Woman is most enigmatic as not banned from Eden, and purity relates only to her isolation inside the TOL from where she is the seat of wisdom opposite the TOL wherein we are isolated from Her and so are banned from Eden. The concept is very simple if you call the TOL our very own soul and the TOK our lymbic system wherein we are the rational agent and live beside ourself.

We can now say that in the TOK we are the rational 'hunter' with 'objective vision' who goes by 'sense perception' and She is the 'gatherer' with 'subjective vision' presiding over the TOL where our 'thousand year reign' is at, wherefore then also 'time-as-such' is not known there and so is how the 'heavens' are created in the plural in Gen.1:1 as opposed to 'earth' in the singular to make reference to our very owy 'blank slate' as individual hunter.

Not sure if you can visualize this, but as outsider to our own self, it can be said that we, as [alineated] males 'live our life for her' as she is our pride, our joy, our wisdom and our all, except that we do not know her as she was 'taken from us' and we were banned from Eden. She so is the cause of our desire to find a soul mate and so is the cause of Love in us.

So this 'woman' then is not a female but makes reference to our very own womanity (archaic word), or soul, that 'contains and is' our very own dowry in bethrothal wherein we so can [said to be] up to 1000 years old. Ie "the reign of God is already in you midst" (Lk 17:21). From this follows that the essense of virginity is the curtain/hymen that separates us from our very own soul and that is protected by our own integrity as human with dignity in her honor, and in her honor only as to the complexity of who we are.

Perpetuity only means that 'the woman' is 'home to us' as in 'each one' of us and is the cause of our 'integrity' as male, wherein we have learned to walk upright in defence of 'who we are in her' as our very own seat of wisdom. Yes she is the most enigmatic of all and will meet us at the Gate to heaven to lead us home to the innermost depth of our own being, and so consciously into our very own RNA and from there transform our DNA.

And yes the ancient languages may be more holistic but still have the same problem of describing a non-rational event called metamorphosis, and so they may 'pretend to know more' but in being wholistic they are also more handicapped than we by being less explicit, but indeed, they are not as easy rationally misled by our many conventional words.

Please look at the distinction made in Gen.3:6 where the woman saw that the TOK was good for gaining goodies to be retained and then look at the chain of command in Gen 3:15 where the woman will strike at the lesser serpents head, who in her turn will strike at the [human] heel after they are banned from Eden. So now Eve is the lesser serpent or temple tramp in our very own conscious mind, while the woman still presides over our very own TOL and hence the Zechariah-Elizabeth allegory in Luke to introduce Mary of the present generation to give birth to the Lamb of God in us.

So heaven then is a state of mind wherein the great divide is gone and the woman's ultimate dream has become reality in this life here on earth.