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10-31-2007, 03:44 PM | #41 |
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The idea that the gospel of Luke was written by someone who knew Paul has been rather discredited.
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10-31-2007, 03:49 PM | #42 |
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11-01-2007, 03:11 AM | #43 | |||||
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Forgive me if I'm putting words into your mouth, but this is the model you propose (based also on your earlier post in this thread): Paul/ Saul was a Roman citizen and had at least those two names from birth. He was known as Saul throughout his youth in Palestine. In the 40s, he met X Sergius Paulus (Praenomen unknown). At this point, Luke adds a line to say - now, there's a coincidence, because Saul's name is Paul as well. The "also" in "Saul who was also known as Paul" means that Paul and Sergius share a name. So far, so good - but after that point, Luke does not use "Saul" at all. He only uses "Paul". Why? Did Paul get the idea for using a different part of his multi-barrelled name solely because he met someone with that part? My middle name is "James". I haven't used it in years - it's on my passport, but nowhere else. If I met someone with the name James, would I be likely to say - wow, that's a coincidence - I must start using "James" to the exclusion of my other names? No, there's something funny here. One solution is to say there's two stories, two characters, joined by a latter redactor. There's no evidence for that that I know of, but it's a solution. Another solution is to say the text has been mucked about with by people who didn't really understand the original. IMO that's likely, but it's defeatism. Another solution is to say Paul bought his citizenship as an adult and changed his name at the same time. We know Claudius was making that easier, we have a little evidence (the scourging the young Paul experienced) that he hadn't always been a citizen, it fits everything except Acts 22. Quote:
(I mean that IIUC only Patricians had clans, and therefore only Patricians had true nomen. But Plebs and other non-Patricians could have middle names that looked like nomen. But equally they may have only had two names: Marcus Antonius. See for example Norman Davies, A History of Europe, p168). Quote:
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11-01-2007, 03:50 AM | #44 |
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Another thought on names. According to the Wikipedia link I gave, in everyday use the Romans used either someone's cognomen or their praenomen plus nomen. So either "Caesar" or "Gaius Julius", but never just "Gaius". So "Paul" could not have been Paul's praenomen. It also can't have been his Cognomen - he wasn't related to Sergius. All that's left is that it's his nomen (my theory), or it's some kind of nickname (also possible - the Acts of Paul and Thecla says he was physically small). Someone here said that he chose it as some kind of gesture of humbleness. "A gesture of humbleness" doesn't fit the picture of Paul I have.
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11-01-2007, 05:19 AM | #45 |
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He called himself a slave tho. Slave to Christ. He could at least pretend to be humble when he felt it advantageous to do so. Opportunist charlatan like many televangelists today...?
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11-01-2007, 05:33 AM | #46 | |
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But you cornered me here. That all goes way beyond the text, and I couldn't begin to defend it. It's just the way I get a grip on Paul. |
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11-01-2007, 05:36 AM | #47 |
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It does make sense because if his Damascus road experience made him son of the Father he could no longer be a Jew. So he was Saul before conversion and Paul afterwards and Luke would be the one to present this because he alone understands the metaphysics of this transformation.
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11-01-2007, 05:45 AM | #48 | ||
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11-01-2007, 06:41 AM | #49 |
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I exhausted and probably bored a few people with this a few months ago, but my take on this is as follows:
The background that one has to get one's head around to understand the truth about Saul=Paul is that Acts is bogus. I'll quote the gist of this version of the Acts-is-bogus idea from Doherty's review of Price's Pre-Nicene Testament: [...] Based on earlier efforts, Price has reconstructed Marcion’s Gospel, one of the most interesting highlights of the book for what it contained and what it did not contain. But the important point here is that Price, like Knox and a few others similarly convinced by him, such as J. T. Townsend, sees Marcion as using an Ur-Luke with a few excisions which were unpalatable to Marcionite doctrine. Shortly therefore, in direct response to Marcion, revisions and additions by a “Lukan Ecclesiastical Redactor” who did his work sometime in the 140s and 150s created the now-canonical Luke, recasting the Gospel with a more pronounced “catholicizing” tone and content. But I would go further than this, I would go with Detering's radical questioning of the character "Paul" altogether. That's not to say there wasn't someone remarkable at the root of Christianity who kick-started it. There was, and his name was Simon, nicknamed "Atomos" ("Shorty" - Latin version "Paulus"), a Samaritan magician attested in Josephus, and a proto-Gnostic who became inspired by a revision of the Messiah idea started in a Jewish community of fervent mystics and scripture-exegetes led by one Cephas; a revision that placed the Messiah as a character in the past who had already done his work in a secret, spiritual, humble, apparently failed manner, rather than someone to come who was yet to do it in a brazen, material, triumphant, successful manner. Simon then universalised that idea, preached it, inspired a small but fervent community of believers all over parts of Europe and Asia Minor, many of whom eventually became Gnostics, but some of whom (especially in Rome) became the proto-orthodoxy. The rest of the story is then more or less as outlined in the Doherty review quote above, except I would say that a good deal of Paul's letters is genuine. The proto-Gnostic stuff was impossible to excise given the popularity of his letters, but they were probably shorter than the ones we now have, probably a bit more like Marcions (although I don't doubt Marcion tampered with them for his own purposes too). I also think that Marcion, as Valentinus and many other proto-Gnostics and Gnostics, were genuinely in the lineage of this true Paul. In Acts Simon Atomos became split into a "good" and "bad" version, the "good" version being made to shake hands with "Peter" in Acts (i.e. representing those Gnostics who were prepared to toe the party line), and the "bad" version being castigated as "Simon Magus" (the evil founder of recalcitrant Gnostics). The "Peter" of Acts is a link back to the Jewish Christian church (meant to suggest Cephas) invented by the proto-orthodoxy to give them a lineage connection that would trump the other, merely spiritual lineage connections back to Simon Atomos that were held by the majority of leaders in a variegated movement which started as proto-Gnostic under Simon Atomos, and was by this time becoming more recognisably Gnostic. In this context, Saul=Paul is just a bit of fluff, a bit of retroconning to give the "good" Paul more of a Jewish cast (the necessity to keep the remnants of Jewish Christians "on side" being the other part of Acts' double-act). In order to firm up the lineage connection even more, the spiritual Jesus of the early Jewish Christian and Pauline theology was firmed up, made more fleshy and historical, and a bogus association was made between Cephas=Peter/the Disciples and this firmed-up Jesus, such that they were supposed to have actually known the cultic figure in the flesh. The firming-up of historicity might have been based around an early form of Mark, or perhaps Luke, these proto-gospels or gospel elements being at first merely innocent attemps to flesh out the earthly aspect of the biography of the cultic figure, which in its earliest versions was just a vague "recent past" or "once upon a time" without much detail; or to do this, plus use the cultic figure for theological or propaganda purposes. The pseudo-Clementines are a slightly later Jewish Christian reaction to this Roman Catholic attempt to bring the whole Christian movement under one umbrella - their authors swallow the orthodox Apostolic Succession and believe the Cephas-knew-Jesus-personally schtick (indeed probably believe themselves to be descended from the same lineage by that time), but by re-splitting "Peter" and proto-gnostic "Paul" (under the Acts name of Simon Magus) who had been joined at the hip by Acts, they remind the Roman Catholic church of its Gnostic roots, as if to wag a finger and say "we know your game". As I've said before but I'll say it again because I think it contains the absolute kernel of the key to unlocking this whole mess, the political necessity for a better "Apostolic Succession" than Paul's merely spiritual one (to a spiritual Christ) is the tail that wags the dog of the strongly historicised Jesus. |
11-01-2007, 07:01 AM | #50 | |
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I think that "Acts says so" is not sufficient reason to believe anything at all about Paul. I am not suggesting that we must believe either everything or nothing in Acts. But without some defense of its historical reliability, if Acts is our only source for some statement about Paul, I see no reason to spend any time looking for an explanation that assumes it must be true -- especially if the proposed explanation has to also assume the occurrence of events not attested even in Acts. |
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