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Old 10-31-2007, 03:44 PM   #41
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The idea that the gospel of Luke was written by someone who knew Paul has been rather discredited.
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:49 PM   #42
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The idea that the gospel of Luke was written by someone who knew Paul has been rather discredited.
Not in my opinion.
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Old 11-01-2007, 03:11 AM   #43
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This was Luke letting his readers connect with the 'Paul' they knew. The name change reflects Saul/Paul's usage in two fairly distinct regions: Peter's Hebrew sphere of influence, and Paul's own Graeco-Roman 'patch'. So the Saul of Syrian Antioch became the Paul of Anatolian Antioch. John Mark left the other two in the wealthy, Roman-influenced port of Perga; perhaps the thought of unfamiliar, 'pagan' territory beyond was too much for him.
The trouble with Paul always having had two names - that is, from birth - is the sudden cut-off about half way through Acts. No mention of Saul after, no mention of Paul before. One hundred percent separation. (Coincidentally, this is also about when the we-document kicks in...) I suppose the change could be there to represent some kind of new start for Paul - a new ministry, a new religion -, but then why not date it from the moment of conversion? That was when Paul was born again...

Forgive me if I'm putting words into your mouth, but this is the model you propose (based also on your earlier post in this thread):

Paul/ Saul was a Roman citizen and had at least those two names from birth. He was known as Saul throughout his youth in Palestine. In the 40s, he met X Sergius Paulus (Praenomen unknown). At this point, Luke adds a line to say - now, there's a coincidence, because Saul's name is Paul as well. The "also" in "Saul who was also known as Paul" means that Paul and Sergius share a name. So far, so good - but after that point, Luke does not use "Saul" at all. He only uses "Paul". Why? Did Paul get the idea for using a different part of his multi-barrelled name solely because he met someone with that part? My middle name is "James". I haven't used it in years - it's on my passport, but nowhere else. If I met someone with the name James, would I be likely to say - wow, that's a coincidence - I must start using "James" to the exclusion of my other names?

No, there's something funny here. One solution is to say there's two stories, two characters, joined by a latter redactor. There's no evidence for that that I know of, but it's a solution. Another solution is to say the text has been mucked about with by people who didn't really understand the original. IMO that's likely, but it's defeatism. Another solution is to say Paul bought his citizenship as an adult and changed his name at the same time. We know Claudius was making that easier, we have a little evidence (the scourging the young Paul experienced) that he hadn't always been a citizen, it fits everything except Acts 22.

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In the case of Sergius Paulus, Sergius is the nomen and Paulus is the cognomen, yet our man is not Sergius as one would expect, but Paulus.
Yes. I'd assumed that if Paul did adopt Sergius's name in honour, he would have taken his family name (cognomen) as his clan-name (nomen). Obviously new citizens didn't have clans of their own, and they couldn't take real clan-names - the Patricians would have freaked. So the centurion would have had a member of the Claudius family as his patron. I stand to be corrected by someone who knows more about naming conventions, but that's the way I understood it.

(I mean that IIUC only Patricians had clans, and therefore only Patricians had true nomen. But Plebs and other non-Patricians could have middle names that looked like nomen. But equally they may have only had two names: Marcus Antonius. See for example Norman Davies, A History of Europe, p168).

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The likelihood is that his parents gave him both names- one being a praenomen, the other a cognomen. Paul(l)us was a common proper name at the time. Saul was undoubtedly his circumcision name, his father being a Pharisee. Being a Roman citizen, he had in addition a middle name, nomen, unknown to us. So Paul's proper name was Paullus xxxxxx Sa'ul or Sa'ul xxxxx Paullus.
Wikipedia (here) says:

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A study of praenomina found in the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum shows that the seventeen most common male praenomina accounted for 98% of all male roman names.
... and "Paulus" (or it's variations) is not one of them. (Here lists it as "very uncommon").

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I don't remember the author, but I've read that Paul could have used the money he collected from his churches to purchase Roman citizenship in advance of his trip to Jerusalem where he knew he was in for some trouble and wanted all of the clout he could get.
Yes, it's speculative, but it fits my picture of Paul. It doesn't necessarily imply he was an embezzler - he may have done that for the best of reasons. Or at least sincerely believed he did. (The epitaph of fanatics everywhere).
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Old 11-01-2007, 03:50 AM   #44
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Another thought on names. According to the Wikipedia link I gave, in everyday use the Romans used either someone's cognomen or their praenomen plus nomen. So either "Caesar" or "Gaius Julius", but never just "Gaius". So "Paul" could not have been Paul's praenomen. It also can't have been his Cognomen - he wasn't related to Sergius. All that's left is that it's his nomen (my theory), or it's some kind of nickname (also possible - the Acts of Paul and Thecla says he was physically small). Someone here said that he chose it as some kind of gesture of humbleness. "A gesture of humbleness" doesn't fit the picture of Paul I have.

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Old 11-01-2007, 05:19 AM   #45
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Someone here said that he chose it as some kind of gesture of humbleness. "A gesture of humbleness" doesn't fit the picture of Paul I have.

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He called himself a slave tho. Slave to Christ. He could at least pretend to be humble when he felt it advantageous to do so. Opportunist charlatan like many televangelists today...?
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:33 AM   #46
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He could at least pretend to be humble when he felt it advantageous to do so. Opportunist charlatan like many televangelists today...?
The mental picture I have of Paul is that he was not a charlatan. He did not steal, lie, plot and (as Saul) kill for his own gain. He did these things because he was antinomian - he sincerely believed that God had granted dispensation of the law and the Law for his benefit, and to facilitate the fulfilment of God's will and plan. IMO the televangelists are much more cynical - deep down they know they're simple crooks. Perhaps a better comparison would be with a recent former prime minister of the United Kingdom...

But you cornered me here. That all goes way beyond the text, and I couldn't begin to defend it. It's just the way I get a grip on Paul.
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:36 AM   #47
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Paulus is a Roman name, a borne by many famous Romans. But why would a Pharisee (if Saul were in fact one) take a Roman name? It does not seem reasonable.

Eldarion Lathria
It does make sense because if his Damascus road experience made him son of the Father he could no longer be a Jew. So he was Saul before conversion and Paul afterwards and Luke would be the one to present this because he alone understands the metaphysics of this transformation.
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:45 AM   #48
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He could at least pretend to be humble when he felt it advantageous to do so. Opportunist charlatan like many televangelists today...?
The mental picture I have of Paul is that he was not a charlatan. He did not steal, lie, plot and (as Saul) kill for his own gain. He did these things because he was antinomian - he sincerely believed that God had granted dispensation of the law and the Law for his benefit, and to facilitate the fulfilment of God's will and plan. IMO the televangelists are much more cynical - deep down they know they're simple crooks. Perhaps a better comparison would be with a recent former prime minister of the United Kingdom...

But you cornered me here. That all goes way beyond the text, and I couldn't begin to defend it. It's just the way I get a grip on Paul.
I am not sure if they know that they are crooks and might even think that they are doing God a favor as slave of Jesus wherein the end justifies the means. The difference is that Paul was a slave of Christ and, of course, the televangelists doesn't know the difference between these two.
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:41 AM   #49
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I exhausted and probably bored a few people with this a few months ago, but my take on this is as follows:

The background that one has to get one's head around to understand the truth about Saul=Paul is that Acts is bogus. I'll quote the gist of this version of the Acts-is-bogus idea from Doherty's review of Price's Pre-Nicene Testament:

[...] Based on earlier efforts, Price has reconstructed Marcion’s Gospel, one of the most interesting highlights of the book for what it contained and what it did not contain. But the important point here is that Price, like Knox and a few others similarly convinced by him, such as J. T. Townsend, sees Marcion as using an Ur-Luke with a few excisions which were unpalatable to Marcionite doctrine. Shortly therefore, in direct response to Marcion, revisions and additions by a “Lukan Ecclesiastical Redactor” who did his work sometime in the 140s and 150s created the now-canonical Luke, recasting the Gospel with a more pronounced “catholicizing” tone and content.

This view, quite naturally, has been generally resisted by mainstream scholarship, for it opens up a dangerous can of worms. [...] And especially in this case, since a concomitant conclusion is that the same Ecclesiastical Redactor in the mid-2nd century also wrote the Acts of the Apostles, this being another compelling aspect to the case presented by John Knox. This would be disastrous to the orthodox view of the history of early Christianity, for it would essentially reveal what many have already suspected: that Acts is a late, agenda-driven fiction, designed to further the interests of the 2nd century Roman Church, again in response to Marcion and his co-opting of Paul, as well as to the factional rivalry within developing orthodox Christianity, between traditions which were rooted—at least in legend, if not in fact—in Petrine circles vs. Pauline circles.

Over the years there has been a seesaw debate in critical scholarship as to whether Luke and Acts were really written by the same author. Between the two, says Price, there are some “striking differences in vocabulary” [p.496], suggesting different writers. Yet what they have in common is just as important: thematic consistency, a common agenda to get certain ideas and positions across. This suggests a single mind and purpose behind the two documents—those ideas and that purpose relating to 2nd century issues. As Price suggests, the two observations can be reconciled by assigning the unique vocabulary to the original author of the Ur-Luke (which, by the way, was the stage at which Q was added), while a single writer was responsible for revamping the Gospel for mid-2nd century Roman interests and at the same time creating the Acts of the Apostles to further those same interests. This writer-editor created a story arc embodying a soteriological process that spanned both documents. These common threads are highlighted throughout Price’s commentary and footnotes attached to his translations of Luke and Acts.

The commonest justification (it goes back to Harnack) for dating the Acts of the Apostles to the 60s of the 1st century is that the author ends the work with Paul’s arrival in Rome and says nothing about his death. Price offers several indicators within the text which suggest that the author did know of the death of Paul, such as the presence of large-scale parallels between the Passion of Jesus and that of Paul, necessitating a knowledge of Paul’s ultimate fate [p.483]. As well, the whole treatment of Paul throughout Acts speaks to a time when Paul was long gone and it was traditions about Paul and others in the early Christian movement and what was subsequently made of them that needed addressing and ‘spinning’. Prominent here is the obvious paramount concern of Acts to reconcile the two factions represented by Peter and Paul, to create a unity in the early movement which the epistolary record itself does not bear out. Acts subordinates a submissive Paul to the Jewish apostles. Peter and Paul are made two sides to a single harmonized coin. They perform similar miracles. The content of their speeches (all crafted by the author of Acts) are the same. Paul has been Petrinized and Peter Paulinized. These are not presentations which could have engaged a Christian writer—much less an actual companion of Paul—as early as Paul’s lifetime. Nor would such a companion or early writer have been likely to produce so many contradictions and irreconcilabilities between what Acts tells us about Paul and what Paul’s reputed epistles tell us about Paul. After all, as I pointed out in Challenging the Verdict [p.19], within Paul’s lifetime there would hardly have developed widespread traditions about his preaching and movements that would have been available to a writer to fashion the Acts story. He would have had to go to Paul himself for much of his information, in which case we would hardly see the significant anomalies that exist between Acts and the epistles.

Price offers several other reasons to reject Acts as the product of the 1st century, including its treatment of apostolic tradition (something never appealed to in 1st century writings), the use of the term “bishops” to refer to elders of the community, the treatment of Jews as beyond redemption, 2nd century apologetic language, late Christology, and the presence of numerous anachronisms betraying 2nd century features and concerns; all discrediting any early dating of this document. In one waggish heading, Price calls it “The Acts of the Apologists.”

Both Luke and Acts “de-eschatologize” Mark, who pointed to signs of an imminent End. For the writer-redactor of Luke-Acts, too much time has now elapsed and even Jesus’ language has to be altered to dilute any expectations of immediacy for the Second Coming. It goes without saying that the Prologue to the canonical Luke—the address to “Theophilus” and the reference to “many accounts” that preceded the writer’s own—is the product of the 2nd century Redactor, tied into the opening line of Acts. But it should be noted that even here, whether at an early or later date, no identification of a purported author is included for either the Gospel or Acts. It was only a generation after the Redactor did his work that we encounter any reference to “Luke, the companion of Paul” as the one who wrote these accounts: in Irenaeus around 180.


But I would go further than this, I would go with Detering's radical questioning of the character "Paul" altogether. That's not to say there wasn't someone remarkable at the root of Christianity who kick-started it. There was, and his name was Simon, nicknamed "Atomos" ("Shorty" - Latin version "Paulus"), a Samaritan magician attested in Josephus, and a proto-Gnostic who became inspired by a revision of the Messiah idea started in a Jewish community of fervent mystics and scripture-exegetes led by one Cephas; a revision that placed the Messiah as a character in the past who had already done his work in a secret, spiritual, humble, apparently failed manner, rather than someone to come who was yet to do it in a brazen, material, triumphant, successful manner. Simon then universalised that idea, preached it, inspired a small but fervent community of believers all over parts of Europe and Asia Minor, many of whom eventually became Gnostics, but some of whom (especially in Rome) became the proto-orthodoxy. The rest of the story is then more or less as outlined in the Doherty review quote above, except I would say that a good deal of Paul's letters is genuine. The proto-Gnostic stuff was impossible to excise given the popularity of his letters, but they were probably shorter than the ones we now have, probably a bit more like Marcions (although I don't doubt Marcion tampered with them for his own purposes too). I also think that Marcion, as Valentinus and many other proto-Gnostics and Gnostics, were genuinely in the lineage of this true Paul.

In Acts Simon Atomos became split into a "good" and "bad" version, the "good" version being made to shake hands with "Peter" in Acts (i.e. representing those Gnostics who were prepared to toe the party line), and the "bad" version being castigated as "Simon Magus" (the evil founder of recalcitrant Gnostics). The "Peter" of Acts is a link back to the Jewish Christian church (meant to suggest Cephas) invented by the proto-orthodoxy to give them a lineage connection that would trump the other, merely spiritual lineage connections back to Simon Atomos that were held by the majority of leaders in a variegated movement which started as proto-Gnostic under Simon Atomos, and was by this time becoming more recognisably Gnostic.

In this context, Saul=Paul is just a bit of fluff, a bit of retroconning to give the "good" Paul more of a Jewish cast (the necessity to keep the remnants of Jewish Christians "on side" being the other part of Acts' double-act).

In order to firm up the lineage connection even more, the spiritual Jesus of the early Jewish Christian and Pauline theology was firmed up, made more fleshy and historical, and a bogus association was made between Cephas=Peter/the Disciples and this firmed-up Jesus, such that they were supposed to have actually known the cultic figure in the flesh. The firming-up of historicity might have been based around an early form of Mark, or perhaps Luke, these proto-gospels or gospel elements being at first merely innocent attemps to flesh out the earthly aspect of the biography of the cultic figure, which in its earliest versions was just a vague "recent past" or "once upon a time" without much detail; or to do this, plus use the cultic figure for theological or propaganda purposes.

The pseudo-Clementines are a slightly later Jewish Christian reaction to this Roman Catholic attempt to bring the whole Christian movement under one umbrella - their authors swallow the orthodox Apostolic Succession and believe the Cephas-knew-Jesus-personally schtick (indeed probably believe themselves to be descended from the same lineage by that time), but by re-splitting "Peter" and proto-gnostic "Paul" (under the Acts name of Simon Magus) who had been joined at the hip by Acts, they remind the Roman Catholic church of its Gnostic roots, as if to wag a finger and say "we know your game".

As I've said before but I'll say it again because I think it contains the absolute kernel of the key to unlocking this whole mess, the political necessity for a better "Apostolic Succession" than Paul's merely spiritual one (to a spiritual Christ) is the tail that wags the dog of the strongly historicised Jesus.
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:01 AM   #50
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1) In Acts, Paul is referred to as Saul before the meeting with Sergius, and Paul afterwards. . . .

. . . we have Paul's own word (as quoted by Acts) that he was a Roman citizen "from birth". The trouble is, that episode feels planted.
So . . . Acts says that Paul was once called Saul, and that is reason enough to believe he changed his name. But when Acts says he was a citizen from brith, that is not reason enough to believe he was born a citizen.

I think that "Acts says so" is not sufficient reason to believe anything at all about Paul.

I am not suggesting that we must believe either everything or nothing in Acts. But without some defense of its historical reliability, if Acts is our only source for some statement about Paul, I see no reason to spend any time looking for an explanation that assumes it must be true -- especially if the proposed explanation has to also assume the occurrence of events not attested even in Acts.
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