lulay

your query about 'crucifixtion' in the context of it being connected to a 'sacrfice' of a sacramental mushroom/god-man

you also wonder how do i know it wasn't a 'common beet-root passed around'....? for the simple reason that, like now, there wouldn't be much inspirational ecstasy potential......we would be left, flat!

This iw what J M.Allegro has to say about "crucifixion":

"The idea of crucifixion in mushroom mythology was already establishe before the New Testament myth-makers portrayed their mushroom hero Jesus dying by this method. The fungus itself was apparently known as "The Little Cross".......he goes onto explain that the verb used in the OT story of Saul for "crucify" "means properly "disjoint" (The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, J M.Allegro)....also one sees on the cover of the aformentioned book, The Jesus Mysteries an ancinient image of a crucified Dionysos...!

about 'Harvest Festival'....it has to be understand the ancient understanding of fertility, before the patriarchalists demeaned erotic interelation with Nature. It was deemed conjusive to Nature to be in ecstatic celebration, including sensual and sexual celebration. namely because one was 'possessed' with Nature. thus this experience could only be fructifying for community and land

"when mushroom wears off you are back to reality"

ahhhhh, you mean 'oh shit we are "comin down" trip?....well thats a modern feeling i should presume, but also i suggest--from my research into Nature-denying hallucingenic cults, where with the latter, there would be a despiar to have to return to the 'body'...The ancient Orphics who reformed the orginasy Dionysian earth religion, and created a dggma which divided earth from heaven, Nature from spirit, etc had the saying 'soma sema' meaning 'the body a tomb'

as for modern feelings of 'back to reality'...it can hardly be blamed. the general consensual myth is a materialistic-mechanistic reality. hardly inviting.....BUt this inspired the serious explorer to look more closely AT this myth we come back TO

(have lost track of time. dont want to lose all above so will have to go to
part 3 below

lulay

...yes, so we have to understand OUR 'back to reality' paradigm. We have to ask question thus: AM i indoctrinated and i may not know it/realize it?....what are them main tenets of the paradigm i am returning to/living in, etc etc. REAlly explore all this

you further ask:
Sounds like your saying the writers of gospel...were all not of their right minds; hallucinating to achieve a godhood like life"

well, Gawen, you first have to grok that by the time it all gets written down, and etc etc, a lot of the original spirit of 'possession' was gone. with the NT and OT we get the historical element indoctrinated. EVEN the 'hidden' layers as explored by Allegro and others, we see--i see--a semen centricity. by that i mean an emphasis on male semen. so for example the secret names of the god-man/Jesus plants emphasize 'God's' semen...by that i mean 'him-up-there-god"...remeber that in the Christian myth no mention of Goddess, MUCh emphasis on "Father".......This is all from its influence from Orphism. where the sexual, wild elements have been diluted, and suppressed, and also made into a 'Devil'. twas after all a creation of the Christian myth the Devil you know...

you say Gawen: " It seems to me, taking mind-altering drugs to escape or enhance realiy is a cop out"

fist lets look at 'escape'..surely boozing is escape. aren't you dulling the pain of life?...same wih psychiatric meds...aren't you dampening real feelings, real emotions so as to keep on keeping on....some sad dream others think you should be keeping on. for what? for whom? yourself?

whereas hallucinogens, took right, with deep respect DEEPEN you to awe inspiring emotion, and insifght into reality. THIs is why they are so feared by the status quo

now 'enhance'....well, i feel we are a continnum. for example, we are changing..all through the day we have different moods. we might be bored one mo, and next mo we are having fun. nothin is static'what the ecstatic experience is is a part of the potential living experience...and great insights can be gotten from this dimensions

Gawen

For the most part, I'm not going to go point-to-point.

An adequate ethic must have two elements, a norm or highest value giving continuity and meaning to terms like right and wrong, and a method for applying this norm to a situation of discontinuity and/or change. The issues raised by the various uses of the hallucinogenic drugs provide a case-illustration of this ethic. This is drawn from now-extensive literature covering past and recent uses of hallucinogens, their physiological and psychological effects, and their short and long-range supposed/alleged benefits and dangers.

Conflicts of world-view and life-style underlie the attitudes of value and disvalue these substances elicit, in spite of the subjective bias expressed in the terms used to interpret them. A common thread runs throughout descriptions of the experience. This is the increased vulnerability these drugs produce to personality and an expected predisposition plus the environmental context to the persons using it.
These drugs join hypnosis, sleep and sensory deprivation, religious ecstasy and "brainwashing," in producing a state of heightened suggestibility.

The norm of the person-agapeic ethic is love; an unmotivated, spontaneous, nonsentimental, rational, benevolent, deep-level volitional concern and commitment to themselves, to others or to/from gods. Love so characterized has as its precondition the self-determinate person, and this ethical action has primarily to do with producing and preserving this precondition, or in another sense, tending toward or to achieve agapic-like love. The practical categorical imperative of this ethic is, "so act as to enhance personhood for the sake of agape." Since the highest level of personhood possesses the greatest agapic value, a relative scale of personal value is possible, ranging upward from ‘thing’ to high-level ‘person’ or to ‘God’, as the means of resolving conflicting interpersonal claims.

As the uses of hallucinogens are explored, it is apparent that they potentially threaten self-determination and thus the precondition of agape. Their supposed benefits are most often achieved at the expense of the agapeic person even while creating illusions of openness and greater freedom. This is true both of their psychedelic and therapeutic use. Users tend to become detached from and uninvolved in the responsible concerns that are characteristic of agape. There is a possibility that these changes are organic and irreversible in nature.

A therapeutic method which bypasses and undermines the ego is not compatible with the person-agapeic conception of man. Lifton's distinction between education and brainwashing affords a good contrast between a therapeutic method which is sensitive to personal value and one that is not.

Further investigation into the subtle and long-range effects of these drugs is indicated but present evidence places their casual use under indictment.


Dan Merkur's book The Mystery of Manna, makes it clear that the author has no comprehension of Mythology or Mycology. Merkur’s notes-Chapter #1 footnote #5 states that "Neither is there evidence to support the cavalier allegation of J. M. Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross...That manna was Amanita Muscaria, the fly agaric mushroom." Mr. Merkur is clearly not a world leading Philologist/Mythologist, yet has written an entire book backing John Allegro's theory, and does not even see it himself, and clearly ignores volumes of other's research in order to make his case.

Freud would have a field day with Allegro. Here, Allegro gives testimony to Rev 1, 13-16, the description that of a mushroom or toadstool and its effects.
. . . in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast; his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow, his eyes were like a flame of fire . . . his face was like the sun shining in full strength (Rev I, 13-16).

“Since it (mushrooms) appeared often after storms, they thought that the heavenly deity must have fertilized the virgin by his word in thunder. The resultant baby mushroom, which grew into the shape of its divine father as a small erect penis, was thus in a special way a 'Son of God', and was called 'Son of Thunder'. The expression of these old fancies in the Virgin Mary and Immaculate Conception myth of the New Testament will be easily recognizable. The name 'Son of Thunder' appears as a nickname given to two of Jesus's disciples, James and John, the so-called Boanerges brothers (Mark 3, 17). In the text, 'Sons of Thunder' appears as a translation of the strange and hitherto inexplicable 'Boanerges'.

The essential truth of the Christian and Essene claims that they were the inheritors of the religion of ancient Israel may now be affirmed. The old Israelitish cult and mythology, the Yahweh-worship, the patriarchal legends, the sojourn in Egypt, and so on, are rooted in the religion of the sacred fungus, developed from the underlying fertility philosophy of the ancient Near East.�

“The New Testament is, as now we can realize, the cryptically written aide-memorie of the mushroom worshippers. The 'Jesus', like the 'Dionysus' of the related Bacchic religion, is but a personification of sacred fungus, the 'smeared' or anointed, the 'christ', the phallic representative of the ancient fertility god Yahweh/Zeus. His story recounted so vividly in the Gospels was never meant to be read as history by the communities to whom the writings were sent. But embedded in the tale and in the reported words of the legendary teacher were those secret, all-powerful names whose recitation was of such importance for the continuation of the sect's influence, and the freeing or 'salvation' of the souls of the initiates.�

What happens, then, if the supreme act of God's self-revelation, the Incarnation, turns out to be a hoax? Is the Son of God really a mushroom? Is the Word Bearer really “the semen of the divine penis�?
Is the supreme symbol of God's passion for mankind, the Cross, really a representation of the mushroom and, like the fungus, signified the copulation of penis and vulva as the central sacrament of an age-old fertility cult?

Allegro and Merkur stand all alone...in the middle of their mushroom circle. They stare at each others genitalia, wondering who has the bigger shroom and who is the bigger representative of an alleged ancient fertility cult.

Yeah lulay, you can find God and Jesus and maybe even agape taking hallucinogens...but it don't make it real, or true.

lulay

Dear Gawen, i did try to read what you offered in response to my imput including links.....twice

what i find is a dry academic, and thus cerebral word-athon, going on about what i cannot fathom, and quite frankly neither care to. It reminds me of those dreadful postmodernist diatribes i met when at art school. or wordy philosophy for lovers of words and not experience. it just aint me and i am not in the mood anyhow....
However, on the THIRD readin...i did take some notes from the beginning before i got too bored to continue. which i will remark on

hah.but reading it has taken time so i will have to continue below.....

lulay

btw, my previous reponse is abover Gawen.....as i said, i did make a few notes from beginning....
2These drugs [hallucinogens] join, sleep, and sensory deprivation, religious ecstasy, and "brainwashing" in producing a state of heightened suggestibility......." did you mention TV?.......and school, college, uni, and academia?

but i actually do agree, it is someting i am intersted in. Herer is my theory about the transition from the ancient earth religion of Dionysos to the Nature fearing dogma of Orphism
apparently Orphism was a philosophical branch which developed withing Dionysia........It reformed the wilder elements of originary dionysianism, setting down "in stone" what previously had been left to free interpretation

I am of the opinion that they achieved this reform precisely by brainwashing techniques....by implanting shismic dogma at relevent parts of ecstatic orgia and on integration. This is VERy important to grokk so we know what to look out for.
Of course in modern times we have the phenomenon of the 1960s Manson
Family. There too is suggestion of Manson manipulating his devotees....i have heard that they also took solanaeceous drugs as well as hallucinogens, which is relevant

What we WANT encouraging in is deep feeling for Nature and community. THAt aint brainwashing, tha is INSIGHT

"As the uses of hallucinogens are explored, it is apparent that they potentially threaten self-determination, and thus the pre-condition of agape....creating illusions of openess and greater freedom. This is true of both their psychedelic and therapeutic use"

"apparent" for whom? for example, it isn't apparent for me. do i count? are you saying i cannot trust what i feel? that must dis-trust my feelings and listen to the 'experts' including you?

define more clearly what you mean by "self-determination"...and how you apply this in your life (if you want to that is)....you say it is the "pre-condition of agape"....what you mean? how do you practice "agape"? is it a ritual you do? a meeting you attend? and attitude towards life? can you be more specific what you mean by 'agape'"

you claim that the hallucinogenic experiences and integration [creates illusions] "of openness and greater freedom. This is true of both their psychedelic and therapuetic use".

well, i am not sure where you choose to get your info from, but i assure you i have been researching about this for many years, and have not gotten the 'insight' you have about it. on the contrary. and this includes my own personal experience. in fact when i was 15, and was given LSD, i can say with hand on heart, the experience gave me incredible feelings of freedom and openess.........so

Gawen

lulay,

For two days I've mulled this over. Without writing page after page of gobledigook, all I can come up...simply...is this.

Like religious experiences, hallucingenics give the user different feelings than other users. Most religious experiences are self-induced and the inducee has control all the time, whether they know it or not. Outside chemical experiences are also self-induced (sometimes clinically induced), but the user has no control AFTER the ingestion/injection...and then it's a ride to never-neverland.

Many people, including myself have had experiences of freedom and openess and wellbeing just by being in the woods, or sailing, or even fishing. Some feel this way after sex. I wager you can find many ways to acheive these feelings without ingesting a controvertial chemical that you have no control over.

If you want feelings of nature and community, I expect you to get within these respective venues, not take hallucinogens and pretend. Not to mention that taking controled manufactured chemicals like lysergic acid diethylamide is in no way 'natural', nor a benefit to you or the community as it is illegal.

Osirius

Thou shall not eat from the fruit of "ONE" specific tree. LIFE TREE!

We are all part of the blessed garden, and the so-called apple, or deception here is ellipsed, by the compilers of that book, we know as the bible.

These men, collected these writings of others secretly(Without direct consent of the writers) and selected ONLY that which"THEY" thought was/would be usefull to their purpose and or belief agenda.

Very much as it is today. Through this web site and school systems. Info collected in indirect collection manners, that is what is called "Essays" book/subject reports, they select for group classes(minds)

And certain points of interest, are copyed, and sent to higher levels, for assessment and or pattened products to sell back to us later.

Indirectly, you are still or unknowing taken or giving all that are away to a highly trained group or corperations skilled to outwit the masses,(CONSUMERS) they call us now! In a order to elevate their own personal
purpose or plans.

And, the fruit that was "of the tree" of life, that was not to be violated, is
"THE HUMAN BODY" the branch, and or Life of this/our temple/body.

And, the temptation to cut it, open it, see how it ALL ticks...works, operates,
and creates our existence, OVER AND OVER again, in such a unique formation.
That, LAW/COMMANDMENT was Broken.Desecrated.Defiled. FOR..?
The Covenent, that kept us whole-some(United) in and Honorable(worth saving) in our creator's respected realm.
Mutilated, for vainless illusions of defing death.

Now, this knowledge has spirialed into such a sick, cancerist, medical experimentation tool, to "supposedly" cure all of us, of that something, they "Scientist/Doctors" found..........in their tampering, slicing, injecting,..........evaluations of....this sacred body, they consider a rightful/justifiable plus, to our longevity.And or the answers to all our pains..

Do you EVER find articles that tell you how many(KILLED BY EXPERIMENTS), in each, so called cure. Which, some how always ends up to be another PILL.
How much of your money, spent on/for their "Discovery"? or whom, was left retarded, yet still breathing, and sent to specific locals, to be monitored, by those whom, report changes, if any, to that doctor, whom, no doubt making many mistakes, in the art of testing....created(deformed)

More or less, minimal side effects, is their best(less detectable)acheivements.
today.
And a LOT or pain-suffering, who buy into or are swayed into these Quacks,
who still have not cured a COMMON Cold,

And, who said that these things, that we endure, is in need, of any cure?
Seeing that our creator already established the foundations in us, to over come great feats, when we respect the body, our health, and eat wholesome
appropriete meals. Then we have nothing to FEAR! Right?

lulay

I am assuming Gawen, that you have never intitiated yourself into the
hallucinogenic mysteries?...if you had, you would not use such terms as 'pretence' to define the awesome experiences to be had in ecstasy. No; one SEEs through pretence more like!

You also presume, Gawen. you repsume that i can only enjoy, have insight, feel a deep feeling of awae when hallcunogized--in Nature, etc. Wrong. Rather the experience of ecstasy gives insightm and enriches your life, in its changing ways. like i have said, we are a continuum. we cant ALWAYs be in ecstasy.....that is scomething we can DO if we wish, but there's also the washin, cleanin, regular activities. but the latter can all seem informed by magic once you have insight into the deep interelation between things

you say that 'natrual' religious experience is 'self-induced'....well, i have personally had a very powerful religious experience (not having had hallucinogens) and it wasn't self-induced, and many reports i have read about spontaneous religios experiences also don't seem to be self-induced, they just happen....spontaneously. so i don't really know what you mean

Of course you choos to take hallucinogens, but the set and setting needs to be seriously considered. the way you paint it you straightawy imagine a person is gonna fight the experience. Well, that is why set&setting is so very important. Then you are able to flow with the awesom experience

And regarding their illegality. Dear me, Gawen, you simply MUST stop being so ORTHODOX.....get a bit heretical girlfriend, that's where all the fun's at

seriously though, i am sure if you care to explore the history of ideas, including mythology and religion, and art, literature etc., nearly all of the truly interesting and original and insightful and revolutionary ideas have come from HERESY....!....though i mean non-dulaistic heresy of course

Gawen

I presume nothing, Lulay and you proceed from a false assumption. Several in fact.

Wrong. I have had my daliances with LSD and PCP, amongst others way back in the early 70's...when LSD was really LSD.
I have re-read my last two posts twice each and I cannot find where I used the word..."pretence". So actually, I don't know what you're going on about here.
I presumed nothing of the sort. No where did I say such a thing, nor have I alluded to it.
.Like I wrote below, "Conflicts of world-view and life-style underlie the attitudes of value and disvalue these substances elicit, in spite of the subjective bias expressed in the terms used to interpret them. A common thread runs throughout descriptions of the experience. This is the increased vulnerability these drugs produce to personality and an expected predisposition plus the environmental context to the persons using it.
These drugs join hypnosis, sleep and sensory deprivation, religious ecstasy and "brainwashing," in producing a state of heightened suggestibility." Ecstacy itself is a relative and subjective term. One may think under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs that flying without the aid of technology is ecstacy. And it very well might be...until they hit the ground.
I wager one has interrupted the natural 'continuum' by introducing mind altering hallucingens. I do not believe in magic. Why do I want everday activities to "seem" like magic? And how does washing the dishes under the influence of hallucinogens a deep correlation in a belief in the existance of a god and a relationship with It, for example?
You'll have to show me proofs of both, otherwise, I am confident that your hallucinogenic use has prompted this experience. I have no ther choice to see it this way, since you seem to link the two.
Let's all sit out by the campfire, drop a hit of acid and tell ghost stories. How much are you willing to bet that vitually all the users will see ghosts?
1. Let's get this straight. I am a man, through and through.
2. I am a heterosexual through and through.
3. I am not your girlfriend.
4. I am heretical enough in my atheism.
5. I do not need illegal drugs to enjoy life, or enhance it socially.
6. I do not take illegal drugs to enjoy life or enhance it.
7. I do not advocate the breaking of laws for personal social enjoyment or otherwise finding deep correlations to the meanings of life.


If you need hallucingens to contemplate life, so be it. Drop and contemplate away. But it is your life. Others will find the experiences differently. None are true except to the individual experience.

lulay

..."whay should i want everydsay activities to be "magical"

Gawen, dont be such a fuddy duddy....and hey, why get so uptight cause i imagined you were female. that reveals stuff to me, and your insistence you are SO heterosexual.........well, exCUSE me....hehe see the funny side kid

and we must be of similar ish age...when i first took LSD in 1971 it too was REAL Acid, in tab form, extremely powerful. i believe it was made at a notorious
London lab which was busted by a load of coppers......a few ofthem got high on the lab air--if you know what i mean,and freaked out imagining they were being chased by monsters......that figures

and Gawen, dear man, the law is fit to be broken....when it's an ass!