Lysimachus

If you guys want to see all the evidence, I suggest reading Moller's book. The evidence is all there.

And don't tell me I have to type out the whole book for you. That not only is immature, but a complete waste of time. I'm not here to baby you folks and put it on a silver platter. You're going to have to do some reading of books yourself. If everything was on the net, what would be the point of books?

Steven Avery

Hi Stephen -- "Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" is a Roman Catholic idea, and not really relevant. Arthur Custance in "The Doorway Papers" gives a good exposition of the yetzer hara, the sin nature, being transmitted through the male, and thus the necessity of the virgin birth for the sinless Messiah. This fits very well with the 23+1 chromosomes.

Shalom,
Schmuel
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Steven Avery

Strange... Didn't we just have a thread where Richard Carrier tried to do a strange statistical analysis that round stones would be improbable as early as a 1st century tomb, base on this article -- http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../indef/4e.html
(Carrier totally overlooked the actual evidence of the Garden Tomb, working only with arcane statistics and ignoring discrete evidences.)
Now you want to go by the BAR article
http://community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=2218
and go the other way moving the round stone Garden Tomb BACK 700 years ?? I never thought much of that BAR article, but maybe someone has it and can see what it offers as sutstantive basis, and specifically what it says about the round groove and stone, and whether this was a feature of the other tombs dated early. From everything I have seen, the Garden Tomb fits the scripture text very well, and any supposed archaelogy problems are strained, it would be nice to realy get the details aired out.
Shalom,
Schmuel
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Amaleq13

There was no "strange statistical analysis" nor "arcane statistics". He simply repeated the numbers from the article. According to the findings, round tomb doors were rare prior to 70CE and restricted to large, elaborate tombs apparently belonging to the rich. IIUC, all of the tombs surveyed were dated to the 1st century by their contents.

I don't know if the article mentions it having a round door but it is among other tombs that date from that period and distant from tombs that date from the one you would prefer.

I don't think the Garden Tomb article is relevant to the examination of 1st century tomb door practices. They are on different subjects and the only thing they have in common, beyond the general topic of "tombs" is that their conclusions don't appear to support your beliefs.

RED DAVE

From Lysimachus:
Insufferable condescension. There are also books around that tell us that there is giant faces on Mars, that Atlantis is in the Bahamas and that humans are descended from Space Aliens. Frankly, that's the company that Ron Wyatt is in.

You're not capable of "babying" us because you, yourself, are fronting a babyish belief system not subject to truth. Everything is rumor, innuendo, unduplicatable evidence and absolutely crazy assertions.

When you come up with one unequivocal fact that asserts any of Wyatt's claims, a fact that can be replicated according to scientific method, we'll take you seriously as something other than a target for practricing our debunking skills.

And I'd still like to here you answer my serious charge of antisemitism.

RED AVE

Wallener

Does it or does it not have copies of Wyatt's dig permits?

John A. Broussard

Since you seem much concerned with the biblical record, would you please explain what happened in the day described here?

JOSHUA10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Thank you

Sauron

I said nothing about being recorded in the bible. You should read more carefully. I said "in ancient records."

Bullshit. You've already been given at least one link disputing that:
http://redseadesert.com/html/006solomon.html

Solomon's Pillars

Solomon's Pillars were formed by centuries of water erosion on the tall, straight rock face. The red sandstone cliffs have been sculpted into pillar-shaped ridges that jut outwards.

Here's another:
http://www.bibleplaces.com/timnavalley.htm
Solomon's Pillars

Solomon’s Pillars are natural geological formations that were formed when the rock cracked and water eroded them to separate the rock into distinct “pillars.� These are popularly known as Solomon’s Pillars but there is no connection to the biblical king. An inscription nearby depicts the Egyptian pharaoh Ramses III offering gifts to the goddess Hathor.

And here's one from the Infidels library, thus specifically refuting your claim that critics don't use that argument:
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ll/chap12.html

SOLOMON'S PILLARS." The massive stone outcroppings pictured above are in the Negeb about sixteen miles north of the ancient port city of Ezion-Geber on the Gulf of Aqabah. They have been called "Solomon's pillars" because some scholars believe that copper was mined here in Solomon's time. Smelting furnaces and heaps of slag have been found nearby. The aridity of the area, the burning heat of the summer sun, the distance from central Palestine and the problem of transporting food and equipment necessary for sustaining life in this barren area must have resulted in a high mortality rate.

Here is another:
http://www.netours.com/2003/Timna%20...d%20temple.htm

And here's Wikipedia:
http://www.answers.com/topic/arabah

I got all that in less than three minutes with Google.com. Who would have thought that the most powerful weapon against outlandish fundamentalist claims would be a search engine. :rolling:

1. I do believe it.
2. More than one critic has used it, as evidenced above.
3. The Saudis acknowledge nothing of the kind.

Wrong on all three statements.

And you know what? They aren't sitting there, either.

Except neither the ark nor any chariot wheels have been discovered.

Because your evidence sucks. Asking me to be open and then giving me easily refuted "evidence" simply isn't going to work.

The problem is not with my willingness; it's with the quality of your argument. So if you want to convince me -- or anyone else around here -- you need to work out the kinks in your arguments first. Otherwise, you force us to work them out for you, and it's not a pretty sight. :thumbs:

Sauron

But since all women (girls) get one X chromosome from the father, then why aren't girls likewise infected with the "sin nature"?

Are you saying that sin is only carried on the y-chromosome? Girls have two x-chromosomes, and zero y-chromosomes. Therefore by that argument, girls -- ALL girls -- should be naturally free of the sin nature. I have a sister; trust me, that ain't how it works.

Also, you never addressed the point that extra chromosome results in Down's syndrome. Care to explain that, in relation to your post abouve about the 23+1 chromosomes?

RED DAVE

Looks like praxeus and Lysimachus have departed the scene, leaving us to classify Ron Wyatt with such as Eric von Daniken, Emmanuel Velikovsky and Carl Baugh.

My only remaining question is: how crazy was Wyatt or was he a con man? My experience is that con men on a large scale tend to be somewhat self-deluded. After awhile, they start believing their own hype. Wyatt's confusion when he returned to the Garden Tomb with a group of backers and his apparent bewilderment over the absence of the cave he allegedly saw and the Ark below it seem to be signs of genuine delusion.

RED DAVE