Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 10-21-2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Sounds like an atheist bumper sticker.

most atheist are not that closed minded.

that is basically ignoring all the human aspects written, and falsely promoting the mythical nature of writing at that time

you will not do any good argueing with such people.

Where did you get your statistics from??? You INVENT your own stats about atheists.

Please, your invented statistics are a Load of BS.

My arguments are based on actual written statements in sources of antiquity.

You make claims that are found in BLANK "SHEETS" of your imagination.

Atheists ARGUE that Jesus was a MYTHOLOGICAL concept.

The abundance of evidence show that the Jesus was NOT human and born of a Ghost, in effect, Jesus was a mythological concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

My argument is that Jesus was Fathered by a Ghost and APPEARED LIKE the Son of Man in the NT and Apologetic sources.

1. In gMark 6.48--Jesus WALKED on water but He appeared LIKE the Son of man.

2. In gMatthew 1.18--Jesus was Fathered by a Ghost but He appeared LIKE the Son of man.

3.In gLuke 1.26-35--Jesus was the Product of an Overshadowing Ghost but he appeared LIKE the Son of man.

4. In gJohn 1.1--Jesus was God but he appeared LIKE the Son of man.

5. In Galatians 1.1--Jesus was NOT human but appeared LIKE a Man.

6. In the Epistles of Ignatius Jesus was GOD but appeared LIKE a man.

7. In the writings of Justin, Jesus was born of a Ghost but appeared LIKE a man.

8. In the writings of Irenaeus, Jesus was born of a Ghost but appeared LIKE a man.

9. In the writings of Tertullian, Jesus was born of a Ghost but appeared LIKE a man.

10. In the writings of Origen, Jesus was born of a Ghost but appeared LIKE a man.

DCHindley · 10-21-2012, 11:23 AM

Duvduv,

John 1:1-18 is a hymn describing the nature of God and his Logos, from the perspective of Philo. John 3:13-21 and 3:31-36 uses this poem to describe how the Logos takes on the role of a divine redeemer who makes himself flesh (Jesus) as part of the redemptive act.

RSV John	BGT John
1:1 In [the] beginning was the Logos,	1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος,
and the Logos was with <the> God,	καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν,
and a-god/divine was the Logos.	καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
2 This (one) was in [the] beginning with <the> God;	2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
3 all (things) through him came-to-be,	3 πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
and without him came-to-be not one (single thing).	καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
The (thing) that came to be	ὃ γέγονεν
4 In him was life,	4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν,
and the life was the light to (the) men.	καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων·
5 And the light in the darkness shines,	5 καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει,
and the darkness has not overcome it.	καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν.
6 Came to be a man	6 Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος,
sent from God,	ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ,
whose name [was] John.	ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης·
7 He came for testimony,	7 οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν
to bear witness about the light,	ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός,
that all might believe through him.	ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
8 This (one) was not the light,	8 οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς,
but (came) to bear witness to the light.	ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.
9 Was <the> true light	9 Ἦν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν,
that enlightens every man	ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον,
was coming into the world.	ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.
10 He was in the world,	10 ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν,
and the world through him came-to-be,	καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
and the world did not know him.	καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.
11 Into his own home he came,	11 εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν,
and his own people received him not.	καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον.
12a But to all who received him,	12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν,
12c he gave power to become children of God;	ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι,
12b who believed in his name,	τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,
13a who	13 οἳ
13c not of blood	οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων
13d nor of the will of the flesh	οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς
13e nor of the will of man,	οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς
13f but of God.	ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ θεοῦ
13b were born,	ἐγεννήθησαν.
14a And the Word became flesh	14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
14b and dwelt among us,	καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν,
14d we have beheld his glory,	καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ,
14e glory as of the only [Son] from [the] Father.	δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός,
14c full of grace and truth;	πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
16 And from his fulness	16 ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ
have we all received,	ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν
grace upon grace.	καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος·
17 For the law was given through Moses;	17 ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη,
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.	ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
18 No one has ever seen God;	18 Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε
the only begotten god [son of God]	μονογενὴς θεὸς
who is in the bosom of the Father,	ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς

He has made him known.	ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven	13 καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν
but he who descended from heaven,	εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς,
the Son of man.	ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,	14 Καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσεν τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ,
so must the Son of man be lifted up,	οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."	15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
16 For God so loved the world	16 οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
that he gave his only Son,	ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν,
that whoever believes in him should not perish	ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται
but have eternal life.	ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
17 For God sent the Son into the world,	17 οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν εἰς τὸν κόσμον
17 not to condemn the world,	ἵνα κρίνῃ τὸν κόσμον,
17 but that the world might be saved through him.	ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
18 He who believes in him is not condemned;	18 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται·
he who does not believe is condemned already,	ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται,
because he has not believed in the name	ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα
of the only Son of God.	τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ.
19 And this is the judgment,	19 αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ κρίσις
that the light has come into the world,	ὅτι τὸ φῶς ἐλήλυθεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον
and men loved darkness rather than light,	καὶ ἠγάπησαν οἱ ἄνθρωποι μᾶλλον τὸ σκότος ἢ τὸ φῶς
because their deeds were evil.	ἦν γὰρ αὐτῶν πονηρὰ τὰ ἔργα.
20 For every one who does evil hates the light,	20 πᾶς γὰρ ὁ φαῦλα πράσσων μισεῖ τὸ φῶς ·
and does not come to the light,	καὶ οὐκ ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸ φῶς,
lest his deeds should be exposed.	ἵνα μὴ ἐλεγχθῇ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ
21 But he who does what is true	21 ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὴν ἀλήθειαν
comes to the light,	ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸ φῶς,
that it may be clearly seen	ἵνα φανερωθῇ αὐτοῦ τὰ ἔργα
that his deeds have been wrought in God.	ὅτι ἐν θεῷ ἐστιν εἰργασμένα.

3: 31 He who comes from above is above all;	31 Ὁ ἄνωθεν ἐρχόμενος ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστίν
he who is of the earth belongs to the earth,	ὁ ὢν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ἐκ τῆς γῆς ἐστιν
and of the earth he speaks;	καὶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς λαλεῖ.
he who comes from heaven.	ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἐρχόμενος
is above all	[ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστίν]
32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard,	32 ὃ ἑώρακεν καὶ ἤκουσεν τοῦτο μαρτυρεῖ,
yet no one receives his testimony;	καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν αὐτοῦ οὐδεὶς λαμβάνει.
33 he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this,	33 ὁ λαβὼν αὐτοῦ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἐσφράγισεν
that God is true.	ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἀληθής ἐστιν.
34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God,	34 ὃν γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ ῥήματα τοῦ θεοῦ λαλεῖ,
for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit;	οὐ γὰρ ἐκ μέτρου δίδωσιν τὸ πνεῦμα.
35 the Father loves the Son,	35 ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ τὸν υἱὸν
and has given all things into his hand.	καὶ πάντα δέδωκεν ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ.
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;	36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον·
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,	ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.	ἀλλ᾽ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_Uni/ECF_Jn1_1.htm

Notice on this list of early church writers that the mentions of the Logos expressed in John 1 are few and not very important in terms of theology and doctrine overall. Other references are not necessarily invoking anything from John 1. And of course we know that the author of GJohn himself does pursue the doctrine and its implications in the rest of the gospel.

Also notice two allusions suggested in Romans 11 and 1 Corinthians 8, which themselves say nothing referring to the Logos concept that emerged in the (probably later) GJohn.

In Romans 11 the name of Jesus or Christ is mentioned not even a single time, while in 1 Corinthians 8 only twice as well (verses 11 and 12), clearly indicating interpolations of Christ ideas into a pre-existing Jewish-friendly text having nothing to do with Christianity.

Duvduv · 10-21-2012, 11:55 AM

Yes, I noticed the hymn, but in particular we don't see a continuation of the idea that the WORD became FLESH, the LOGOS of God and what that implies. And of course, one would have expected the author(s) of the epistles to know this Gospel and integrate this major idea, which they don't.

Sorry I left out the word NOT in the following sentence:

"....Other references are not necessarily invoking anything from John 1. And of course we know that the author of GJohn himself does not pursue the doctrine and its implications in the rest of the gospel."

aa5874 · 10-21-2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Duvduv,

John 1:1-18 is a hymn describing the nature of God and his Logos, from the perspective of Philo...

Your claim is utterly, absolutely and totally erroneous. The writings of Philo has Nothing whatsoever to do with gJohn.

There is no evidence that the author of gJohn used Philo and Apologetics that used gJohn do not mention the writings of Philo.

In fact, it is claim by Philo that he does NOT know of any who is worthy to be called a Son of God. See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book15.html

Philo was a contemporary of the supposed Jesus and did NOT mention any Messianic ruler or Son of God, or Logos named Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

outhouse · 10-21-2012, 03:03 PM

While the Johannine communities started from jewish origins.

does anyone have anything that would indicate they evolved to carry more god-fearers as paul's people?

aa5874 · 10-21-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

While the Johannine communities started from jewish origins.

does anyone have anything that would indicate they evolved to carry more god-fearers as paul's people?

You invent your own history from imagination. There is NOTHING at all anywhere in Jewish history of the 1st century about a character called Jesus who was the Messianic ruler and the Son of God.

In fact, Apologetic sources wrote that the Jews REJECTED the Jesus story and character and for that reason the Temple and Jerusalem was made desolate.

Hippolytus' "Expository Treatise Against the Jews"

Quote:

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate?.......... it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor...

Dialogue with Trypho XVI

Quote:

Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ.

Philo wrote NOTHING of a man that was made into a God called Jesus Christ.

These are the words of Philo in "On Embassy to Gaius"

Quote:

....for it would have been easier to change a god into man, than a man into God...

gJohn is no earlier than the 2nd century.

Duvduv · 10-21-2012, 04:46 PM

It is rather ironic that the opposition to "the Jews," "you" etc. appears in several writings presumably unrelated to each other: GJohn, Hyppolitus and the Justin texts, with an occasional hint or so in the epistles.

That it should appear in such different writings but at a time when the gentile "church" was trying to assert its SUCCESSION or REPLACEMENT role of the Jewish people shows that there were variations to a very late but common underlying theme, long long after the destruction of the Temple and Bar Kochba. That reject-the-Jews theme.

aa5874 · 10-21-2012, 06:15 PM

There is NO evidence whatsoever that those who believed the Jesus story in gJohn were Jewish.

In the very gJohn, the Jesus character claimed the Jews were of the DEVIL.

John 8:44 KJV

Quote:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Apologetic sources claimed the Jews Rejected and Killed the Jesus character.

1. Aristides' "Apology"

Quote:

----This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews........ But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried.

2. Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho"

Quote:

---Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One.

3. Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" 3

Quote:

----Unless, then, the Jews had become the slayers of the Lord (which did, indeed, take eternal life away from them)......... we could not have been saved.

4. Tertullian's "Answer to the Jews"

Quote:

--let the Jews recognise their own fate......on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him.

5. Clement's "Stromata 6

Quote:

---‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ.......... and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on Him...... previous to the capture of Jerusalem.....

6. Hippolytus' "Treatise Against the Jews"

Quote:

----for what reason, was the temple made desolate?.......... it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor.

7. Origen's "Against Celsus" 2.8

Quote:

---And these calamities they have suffered, because they were a most wicked nation......... as for those that were committed against our Jesus.

Duvduv · 10-21-2012, 09:02 PM

Adding these alleged early authors we find that common underlying theme among stsrkly different sources which are more or less pitting the new religion against the Jews. The fact of the different sources and ideologies is even more significant thsn the juxtaposing against the Jews per se.

aa5874 · 10-21-2012, 10:46 PM

The Entire NT Canon is based on the short gMark composed by a Non-Jewish author. There was no Jewish community in the 1st century who worshiped a character called Jesus as a God or called him a Messianic ruler and Savior of all mankind because he was Killed or caused to be killed by the Jews.

There is simply NO evidence to support the NT Canon.

All the recovered dated manuscripts DENY the NT Canon as an historical source composed in the 1st century and DENY any knowledge of the NT in 1st century Jewish communities.

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10-21-2012, 11:55 AM	#83
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Yes, I noticed the hymn, but in particular we don't see a continuation of the idea that the WORD became FLESH, the LOGOS of God and what that implies. And of course, one would have expected the author(s) of the epistles to know this Gospel and integrate this major idea, which they don't. Sorry I left out the word NOT in the following sentence: "....Other references are not necessarily invoking anything from John 1. And of course we know that the author of GJohn himself does not pursue the doctrine and its implications in the rest of the gospel."

10-21-2012, 03:03 PM	#85
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	While the Johannine communities started from jewish origins. does anyone have anything that would indicate they evolved to carry more god-fearers as paul's people?

10-21-2012, 04:46 PM	#87
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	It is rather ironic that the opposition to "the Jews," "you" etc. appears in several writings presumably unrelated to each other: GJohn, Hyppolitus and the Justin texts, with an occasional hint or so in the epistles. That it should appear in such different writings but at a time when the gentile "church" was trying to assert its SUCCESSION or REPLACEMENT role of the Jewish people shows that there were variations to a very late but common underlying theme, long long after the destruction of the Temple and Bar Kochba. That reject-the-Jews theme.

10-21-2012, 09:02 PM	#89
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Adding these alleged early authors we find that common underlying theme among stsrkly different sources which are more or less pitting the new religion against the Jews. The fact of the different sources and ideologies is even more significant thsn the juxtaposing against the Jews per se.

10-21-2012, 10:46 PM	#90
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	The Entire NT Canon is based on the short gMark composed by a Non-Jewish author. There was no Jewish community in the 1st century who worshiped a character called Jesus as a God or called him a Messianic ruler and Savior of all mankind because he was Killed or caused to be killed by the Jews. There is simply NO evidence to support the NT Canon. All the recovered dated manuscripts DENY the NT Canon as an historical source composed in the 1st century and DENY any knowledge of the NT in 1st century Jewish communities.

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