Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Antipope Innocent II · 09-11-2007, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Thanks. If you come across any specific instances of their religious speculations on the shape of the earth, please post a couple of them.

In 25+ years of studying Medieval history in general and Medieval science in particular, I've never found any evidence that anyone in the period had any ideas about the shape of the Earth other than that it was a sphere.

Never.

But I guess I could stumble over something I've been missing for the last quarter of a century. If I do, I'll let you know.

Chili · 09-11-2007, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

Never.

But I guess I could stumble over something I've been missing for the last quarter of a century. If I do, I'll let you know.

You might look for it on the anathema side of the Church where literalism prevailed but was heavily oppressed during those days. These would be those who now claim to have apostolic tradition right back to Jn.6:66 and would therefore be in the secret vaults of the protestant church.

Antipope Innocent II · 09-11-2007, 05:25 AM

[QUOTE=Chili;4773601]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

You might look for it on the anathema side of the Church ...

The what?

Quote:

and would therefore be in the secret vaults of the protestant church.

In the where?

What on earth are you talking about?

Brother Daniel · 09-11-2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

The what?

In the where?

What on earth are you talking about?

Careful, Antipope.

About 99% of Chili's (many) posts are deeply symbolic. There is metaphor within metaphor, allegory within allegory, figurative language to the Nth degree. (Or else they're mere bulls**t. My tiny mind can't tell the difference.)

You won't get a straight answer.

Sarpedon · 09-11-2007, 07:14 AM

Ok, now where were we before all the bizarre theories came in?

I have not seen any medieval depictions of a flat earth either, except on church buildings, and in such a way as to interpret it as an attempt to depict the earth is extremely dubious.

Casper · 09-11-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine Bain

I've just been reading a local Natury History book which notes the decline in grasses and increase in woodland following the Roman advances in south east Scotland. Good for the wildlife maybe, but an indicator of reduced farming and presumably population at that time.

Not necessarily; it could also indicate an increase in open range grazing, possibly coupled with slight climate changes.

The American Southwest is a good example of largely uninhabited grasslands becoming more wooded because of herd animals spreading invasive tree species. The warming after the little ice age contributed as well.

Bonniedundee · 09-12-2007, 12:15 AM

Quote:

So just how dark were the Early Middle Ages (c. 400AD – c. AD1000)? Some interest has been expressed in the flat earth thread in a more in-depth look at current trends in medieval history, so here goes.

I wasn't aware the dark ages lasted to 1000 Ad, I thought they ended about 800Ad.

And they were dark as in their are much fewer reliable sources about these times.

Lucretius · 09-12-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

But why would you not want to have at least the option of deciding to read such literature, history etc and have the ability to make up your own mind how good ,bad or indifferent it was.

I agree. But that's showbiz.

99% of ancient literature is lost. Which 99% it was is largely down to chance. Works by major writers had a better chance. Works written specifically to insult those who did all the copying had a worse one. Works that 'must' survive, such as the Hortensius of Cicero -- familiar to every reader of Augustine's Confessions do not survive. Long chunks of Petronius do.

I'd like the option to read those books sitting under the sands of Egypt, unread for lack of money and time to go and look for them.

Quote:

That seems to be far better than relying on the "editorial abilities" of some medieval priest or monk as to what you may or may not have access to hundreds of years later .

I don't believe that monks in the dark ages had any such agenda, or any means to carry it out if they had. When you're up to your arse in vikings, worrying about posterity tends to be a luxury.

It's a mistake to think in these centralised terms. Think of people, largely cut off from one another, going about their lives. What they did was determined by their immediate needs, not by ideology.

Being human beings, they were quite willing to destroy the works of their enemies. Living in an illiterate age, they couldn't tell what these were, and it didn't matter anyway. All these issues really come to a head in the early 16th century once the Spanish Inquisition sees what printing is achieving to spread Lutheranism and decides to put a stop to it.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

I covered both of these in another post.
It is a bit disingenuous to claim that the "Dark Ages" were not all that "Dark" but that due to the war ,famine and disease the monks (or other scribes ) were not able to copy literary or historical works.
I would say that that would be a fair definiton of "Dark Ages" to be honest.
Yes there was a degree of central control but as I said it was obvioulsy not a universal control as claasical works survived better in some places than in others which would tend not to be the case in a dictatorial system of saying what was preserved or copied.

Roger Pearse · 09-12-2007, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euro_agnostic

I wasn't aware the dark ages lasted to 1000 Ad, I thought they ended about 800Ad.

They usually end in 1066, in England anyway. Once the Vikings push off, basically.

Quote:

And they were dark as in their are much fewer reliable sources about these times.

Not that I know of. They were dark because life was nasty, brutish, and short (which phrase always sounded to me like the name of a firm of provincial solicitors).

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ray Moscow · 09-12-2007, 06:25 AM

Quote:

They usually end in 1066, in England anyway. Once the Vikings push off, basically.

When the French arrived (well, Normans, anyway)!

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09-11-2007, 07:14 AM	#285
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Ok, now where were we before all the bizarre theories came in? I have not seen any medieval depictions of a flat earth either, except on church buildings, and in such a way as to interpret it as an attempt to depict the earth is extremely dubious.

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