Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DaMan121 · 07-13-2007, 12:01 AM

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The chinese sailed the indian ocean with 400' wooden vessels, that used no metal strapping.

Evidence?

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But the ark wasn't even a sailing ship, it was a floating box with no rudder, and it didn't even have to float in the ocean.

It didn't have to float? It was a submarine?

Jet Black · 07-13-2007, 01:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvin's Catarrh

The chinese sailed the indian ocean with 400' wooden vessels, that used no metal strapping.

do you have any of the details of these ships? other than written descriptions which frankly, may well be exaggerations.

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But the ark wasn't even a sailing ship, it was a floating box with no rudder, and it didn't even have to float in the ocean.

no it would have just sank.

Clivedurdle · 07-13-2007, 02:04 AM

We are referring to Zheng Hi. These ships - at least the rudders - exist. They used plenty of metal - by the 1400's the Chinese had been using steel for thousands of years - not in industrial quantities though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship))

The book 1421 extrapolates the facts of these boats that did get around most of the Indian Ocean to the whole world - probably incorrectly.

Oh and xianity did not reach China until the seventh century and this stuff is much older. Humans are incredibly inventive, including about our origins.

I thought it was accepted the Black Sea was created by massive flooding from the Med. The Atlantis legends may be linked.

Febble · 07-13-2007, 02:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvin's Catarrh

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Originally Posted by Occam's Aftershave

Complete and utter hogwash. The largest wooden vessel ever built, the U.S.S. Wyoming at 329’, was over 100’ shorter than claimed for the Ark. Wood is such a (relatively) weak building material that it had to be reinforced with iron strapping to prevent hogging and sagging (warping of the hull due to wave/water forces) and collapsing under its own weight. Even then, the ship leaked like a sieve and was so unstable as to be unseaworthy in all but the calmest weather. Biblical literalists claim that a wooden boat even bigger with no bracing could withstand 1/2 mile high waves in the biggest storm ever seen.

The chinese sailed the indian ocean with 400' wooden vessels, that used no metal strapping. But the ark wasn't even a sailing ship, it was a floating box with no rudder, and it didn't even have to float in the ocean.

The big problem with designing ships is that, as Occam's Aftershave says, they both "hog" - the ends drop relative to the middle - and "sag" - the middle drops relative to the end. It is a big problem in ship design, and is the way that the

Liberty ships failed in mid-ocean in WWII. So in order to make a very long ship strong enough, you have to have some way of resisting tension at gunwale level and compression at keel level to prevent hogging, and vice versa to prevent sagging, of handling the shear forces between the two, and preventing cracks from propagating. Gopher wood would have had to have had structural properties not possessed by any timber grown today (including oak).

Jack the Bodiless · 07-13-2007, 02:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvin's Catarrh

"In the Beginning, god barah (brought newly into existence that which previously did not exist)...

Nope.

"Bara" definitely does not signify creation "ex nihilo". For instance, it's used in Genesis 1:27 to describe the creation of Adam from existing matter (according to Genesis 2:7, "the dust of the ground").

Incidentally, it can also mean "to cut" or "to separate". Thus, Genesis 1:1 could be read as "In the beginning, God separated the Heavens from the Earth", which would be consistent with similar Middle-Eastern creation myths.

Febble · 07-13-2007, 02:23 AM

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Originally Posted by ericmurphy

Actually, if you would read Improvius's devastating criticism's of AFDave's posts on rd.net and at AtBC, you would know that he is well aware of the deficiencies in the creationist model. But it really does seem like this thread would belong better in the Biblical Criticism forum. After all, it's really special creation that is at odds with the theory of evolution more than biblical literalism.

Well, how about it gets eviscerated by the scientists here, then the carcase gets sent to BC&H to be picked over by the historians there? :devil1:

And, Calvin, this isn't even an evil atheist conspiracy. There are at least two Christians here with a vested interest in seeing flawed arguments for Christianity thoroughly debunked. The atheists are perfectly capable of constructing their own straw men - they don't need any help from us.

Clivedurdle · 07-13-2007, 02:23 AM

http://ocean-ridge.ldeo.columbia.edu...ckSeaText.html

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Abstract

During latest Quaternary glaciation, the Black Sea became a giant freshwater lake. The surface of this lake drew down to levels more than 100 m below its outlet. When the Mediterranean rose to the Bosporus sill at 7,150 yr bp1, saltwater poured through this spillway to refill the lake and submerge, catastrophically, more than 100,000 km2 of its exposed continental shelf. The permanent drowning of a vast terrestrial landscape may possibly have accelerated the dispersal of early neolithic foragers and farmers into the interior of Europe at that time.

Jet Black · 07-13-2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febble

And, Calvin, this isn't even an evil atheist conspiracy. There are at least two Christians here with a vested interest in seeing flawed arguments for Christianity thoroughly debunked. The atheists are perfectly capable of constructing their own straw men - they don't need any help from us.

aah but then you can't be true christians. True Christians believe that the earth is 6000 years old, and velociraptors were vegetarians.

Clivedurdle · 07-13-2007, 03:01 AM

Febble, what was that story about cock's crowing? The true goddess is calling you!

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=213375

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OK, I'm yours. I resisted the barbecued kittens, but chocolate....

Paul2 · 07-13-2007, 04:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvin's Catarrh

The chinese sailed the indian ocean with 400' wooden vessels, that used no metal strapping. But the ark wasn't even a sailing ship, it was a floating box with no rudder, and it didn't even have to float in the ocean.

... so what are you suggesting, that it was resting on god's shoulder or something? Also, these 400 foot wooden vessels you mention- your source is wrong, 400 foot long is pure speculation. Scholars agree that ancient sources of these dimensions are wrong, either in translation, or on purpose.

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07-13-2007, 02:04 AM	#53
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	We are referring to Zheng Hi. These ships - at least the rudders - exist. They used plenty of metal - by the 1400's the Chinese had been using steel for thousands of years - not in industrial quantities though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)) The book 1421 extrapolates the facts of these boats that did get around most of the Indian Ocean to the whole world - probably incorrectly. Oh and xianity did not reach China until the seventh century and this stuff is much older. Humans are incredibly inventive, including about our origins. I thought it was accepted the Black Sea was created by massive flooding from the Med. The Atlantis legends may be linked.

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