Javaman

Are you effing serious? Have you been following the thread in question? That you hold that position speaks volumes. "Wah, I'm so tired of being asked for evidence for my own assertions that I can't see the unquestionably factual information put forth in over 430+ posts." 'Nothing to offer' my aunt Fanny.

ETA: After reading Spin's response, I'll add that a whinging about different classes of posters may be marginally OK - I still have issues if you were trying to make a blanket statement about non-believers. In general, also, it makes sense to wait for those making the case for the supernatural to actually do so - as most believers do when dealing with superstitions no their own.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes indeed. Regarding "who have nothing to offer for their own position but vituperation," what does Roger have to offer regarding the dating of the Tyre prophecy? The correct answer is, nothing at all, and yet he has the audacity to say that skeptics have nothing to offer for their own position. Vituperation occurs on BOTH SIDES. Roger is already well aware of this because he used to spend a lot of time at the Theology Web, which has deplorable rules of decorum that allow and actually invite personal attacks. The nastiest people at the Theology Web are often THE CHRISTIANS. How about the nasty Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity? The largest colonial empire in history by far that was conquered under a single religion was conquered by Christian nations by means of murder, persecution and theft of property. For about 90% of the time since the founding of Christianity, the vast majority of Christians favored slavery and the subjugation of women. That would most likely have included Roger had he been born centuries ago. The most important issue is not the Resurrection. It is the nature of God. Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead and goodness. Is there any evidence that Jesus healed anyone except for "the Bible says so"? Well of course there isn't. Will Roger start a new thread and defend the nature of God? I sure hope so.

Toto

MOD REQUEST - NOW THAT YOU'VE VENTED THOSE PENT UP EMOTIONAL RESPONSES, PLEASE KEEP THE PERSONAL STUFF OUT OF THIS AND GET BACK TO THE TOPIC.

THANKS

TOTO

mata leao

thank you my friends, even tho I am a Christian I needed some board member oversight here. Now, please, I need some folks to look at what has been posted and "vote" on whether I have established a reasonable basis for the argument that Ezekiel was reasonably well treated as a captive/exile in Babylon. Then we can get into the more significant part of the debate.(note : I have established with doctorate level historical experts that Ezekiel, although a captive/exile was allowed to live in a community with other jews, was treated more as a colonist than a capitve, had a wife and owned his own house, and after a period of years had the wherewithal to become a priest, even while having to pay taxes in kind and in goods to Babylon.

Sauron

Well, no. We already knew from other sources what the general treatment of the Jews in Babylon was; there has never been any argument there. All that information was available from, say, the Britannica entry on Ezekiel:

And per the above, Ezekiel was most likely a priest *before* going to Babylon; he did not become one afterwards. And from the Oxford Companion to the Bible we also know that he was prominent among the exiles:

In fact, there are several references to his being respectuflly consulted by the leders of the exiles (8.1; 14.1; 20.1). Finally th econtent of Ezekiel's book revelas him as a man of wide learning.

But from the same source, we also learn that your aforementioned report of Ezekiel's death is rather inflated:

Nothing is mentioned in the Bible concerning the circumstances of his death; much later tradition states that he was murdered by one of the leaders of the exiles wholes idolatry he had denounced, and that he was buried near Babylon.

The Book of Ezekiel, Oxford Companion to the Bible, Metzger and Coogan, p.217.

Note, however, that all these sources rely upon the text of Ezekiel for their information about the life of Ezekiel while in Babylon. Set a placeholder here for circularity. :thumbs:

In any event, a general summary of the treatment of the Babylonian exiles is not what we needed. The exile class could actually expect to be rather well treated; they were not chosen at random. Nebuchadnezzar took the ruling class and the upper class elements back to Babylon with him on purpose. But you maintain that Ezekiel was singled out for special treatment by the court in Babylon. That's the item that has to be proven. Then, once you are finished with that, you need to provide proof of the rest of the claims in your famous post. To wit:

(1) forced 'concubinry' involving Tyre -- per your specific claims earlier, and not a general comment on the ubiquitous slave trade in the ANE;
(2) unusual Greek involvement in such sex trade, at this stage in history - also per your claim;
(3) proof of Greek 'conquests' at this period in history, which was a full century and a half before the golden age of Athens, and even longer from the rise of Sparta;
(4) how eradicating the Babylonian 'hegemony' in the Mediterranean would somehow force the liberation of exile Jews in the capital city of Babylon, hundreds of miles away;
(5) that the Babylonian court paid any attention to the prophecies of a Jewish priest held captive with the exiles, as opposed to just ignoring the rambling words of another one of their "pet exiles";
(6) that the Babylonians were somehow 'emboldened' by Ezekiel's prophecy to attack Tyre -- according to your claim -- when otherwise they were not intending to do so already;
(6) the people of Tyre somehow got wind of Ezekiel's prophecy - how did that happen?
(7) and then afterwards, the Tyrians and were thus given a 'false sense of security' - in spite of the fact that they were correct about their security;
(8) that any Jewish children held in Tyre would have been held only on the mainland, instead of the island city - again, according to your claim;

Once you finish these items, we can discuss your claims about Alexander, and the rest of the Tyre prophecy. But given the workload above, I doubt you'll be hanging around that long.

mata leao

No Sauron, lets address the first question..."was Ezekiel reasonably well treated as a captive/exile in Babylon? yes or no?

Sauron

That was not the first question.

The first question was whether or not Ezekiel was singled out for special access to the Babylonian court.

We await your evidence.

Edited to add -- by the way, Vork has already left an explanation in the other thread as to why your evidence is falling short. You would do well to take it to heart:

mata leao

no sauron, you are quite mistaken, lets read the transcript back.....you will clearly see that my proposition was that :Ezekiel was treated fairly well by the Babylonians. And I argued by analogy as to how the babylonains treated young literate Hebrew males , because they found them useful in jobs as "clerks'/ne bureacrats,etc in the Babylonian system. I further presented the "best evidence" available, re: legal rules of evidence, as to Ezekiel being allowed to live in a decent suburb and not for example a slave ghetto, and evidence that ezekiel had a wife and owned his own home, and that his being an intellectual and a scholar and part of a special group that was valued by the Babylonians who were smart enough to know that they needed such talent to govern their growing empire,etc etc, and I showed scholarly examples of similarly situated intellectual hebrew males, etc......and what appears to be a conssitent pattern of treatment.....

Sauron

I am not mistaken.

1. Read my response above - the general treatment of the Jewish exiles was already well known and has never been controversial.

2. Telling us, in general, what the Babylonians did with exiles is not going to prove your point. You can repeat that claim again if it makes you feel good, but your argument is still stuck in the mud.

3. What you need to prove is the specific singling out of Ezekiel for special treatment -- above and beyond what everyone else was getting -- and that said special treatment specifically included access to the Babylonian court.

Pay attention to the bolding above - I do it for a reason.

noah

You're kidding right Roger? Have you been folowing the Tyre and Babylon threads?
Can I assume with a comment like this that you are planning or able to jump into either of those threads and set the skeptics straight?