truthie

Brighid

True, I am new to this board, not to message forums in general. When Wilderneese mentioned, “I've been here long enough to have plenty about atheists both as a whole and in specific,�? it almost sounded as if the only source she had regarding atheists was through this forum, now, I can see it is the contrary.
IMO, forums are not the only and best source that people should use in order to meet certain people.


Wilderneese

No, the Internet is not a poor way; I just don’t think it is the only and best way to meet certain people. As I wrote to Brighid when you mentioned, “I've been here long enough to have plenty about atheists both as a whole and in specific,�? it almost sounded as if the only source you had regarding atheists was through this forum. I have realized that people’s attitudes/thoughts and so on seem to change online and not online, besides it is easier to meet obnoxious/dumb people through the Internet. I have been meeting some atheists in this board, however, I think that knowing atheists in real life is important too, so I decided to gather with some atheists at school, I met some, kind of. Truly, they are communists…

T.

truthie

Guys..
It seems that the thread turned into “which people are more stupid? Atheists or theists?�? and that is not what my OP was about at all, it was not even the intention.

So far, I must say that I agree with Starboy’s first post, others have written similar statements.

I think that the relationship between atheists and theists won’t get better, unless theists stop believing in the misconceptions about atheists…and tolerate/ignore the iconoclast and skeptic streaks of many atheists.
However, there are other options:
a) Atheists can look for another nametag as a replacement of the word 'atheist' besides 'bright' (something that I disagree with, to me, this 'act of replacing' looks as if atheists were trying to please theists. :boohoo:
b) The atheist community gets a martyr, (I disagree with this too.)
c) Some Hollywood star becomes outspoken of his/her atheism, (I don’t like this idea very much.)
Also, the latter seems impossible, since atheists do not tend to scream, “I am this/that�? as religious people often do.

So, what is the solution? If there is any…

T.

Godless Wonder

Since, although it is not really accurate, it is close enough to accurate that it may as well be accurate to say that "religion is a heritable trait" the long term answer is as simple as the theory of evolution.

Outbreed the theists.

However, this seems rather unlikely, and as John Maynard Keynes said, "in the long run, we're all dead." (or something like that.)

Kassiana

Ever single time I have attempted to start dialogue with a theist, in real life, on the web, on the phone, etc, etc, etc, it has degraded to the theist becoming angry at my mere denial of their religion.
--Sorry to hear that you've had so many negative experiences with conservative theists. Most liberal theists don't care if you're an atheist or not. I certainly don't. What I care about is if you're a jerk or not, regardless of your position on religious belief. I reject all jerks, theistic or atheistic, Christian, Hindu, Pagan, etc.

Biff the unclean

So you have gone to all the trouble of finding a non-Theist site, registering, and posting all of these blurbs just to tell us that you don't care?

In my experience the most outstanding attribute of liberal Theists is that while people are having so many negative experiences with conservative Theists liberal Theists never say a word or lift a finger

truthie

And I disagree with that solution too.
Besides, why would you like to see atheists becoming a majority? IMO, that would be awful. :boohoo:
The atheist community is a population where the obnoxious-hypocrite is a minority, which is the contrary regarding the religious community. Making atheism more widespread and popular would only turn the philosophic position into a fad thus, gaining unwelcome people.

Imagine atheism becoming widespread, it would acquire many of the negative aspects of religions, that is if ‘atheism by itself’ is what gets to be widespread or shown, since atheism without skepticism/freethought and emphasis of the use of reason and logic is completely unworthy and futile. (My opinion)
Worst, teens would be a trouble to deal with. I am one, many teenagers would not want to read books on freethought, science or philosophy, at least those who live in the U.S. and since teens have the tendency of getting into the trendy stuff without knowing a dime about the “lovely trendy stuff�?, many of them would just start shouting “I am an atheist!�?

In a blink of an eye, an atheist symbol would be marketed and then, sold as warm bread. And you know what?

One day, you would find one of those teenage atheists wearing the “head-sized atheist symbol�? and ask them, “Would you like to talk about freethought/secular humanism/materialism/skepticism/naturalism…?�?
And their answer would be:
“What is that?�?

Also, since atheism would become popular, the religious folk would start writing books on unusual paths so that their religions do not cease to exist, paths that would blend atheism with any other religion…
"Atheist Baha’i/Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Wicca/Islam/Candomble/Sufism"…. before you know it, atheism would loose its essence, as well as logic, reason, skepticism and so on.
Though, there could be something called “Orthodox Atheism.�?

T.

Anitra

Personally, I'm here because I like talking with freethinkers, about all sorts of subjects. I consider freetinking atheists and freethinking theists to be allies against totalitarians of all stripes.

I will argue strongly about claims of fact. However, I consider religion/philosophy to be more subjective, and unique to each individual. How you relate to the universe is between you and the universe. It's interesting to discuss, but it is neither useful nor desirable to try to make everyone think alike.

I doubt you have been watching all liberal Theists enough to make a definitive statement about their activities. I have seen a number of bigots get piled on electronically by other Christians on Christianity - General at about.com and even on Theology Web. (Liberals are sparse on Theology Web, though.)

There are faults in Christian philosophy, institutions, and behavior. Christianity (or a bastardized version of it) was the state religion of Western empire for many centuries, providing the rationale for why the powerful and privileged deserved their power and privilege. That history leaves us with a heritage of cultural assumptions that are biased and unjust. Any of us who support social justice will, hopefully, be on the lookout for such assumptions and actively work to dismantle them.

There is real religious bigotry practiced in the United States. ( http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/.../1998/wsj.html ) Any of us who want our own freedom of conscience and freedom of speech is responsible for protecting that of others. ( http://anitra.net/activism/fundamentalism/ )

But how many of the negative actions of the United States do you spend 100% of your time campaigning against? Racism is still a problem in our culture; do you spend all of your time defending people who are having negative experiences with racism? If you don't, does that mean that you are a coward or a closet racist?

Life is no damn fair, Biff. We can all do a little something about it, but nobody is going to make it all better for you so nobody is ever mean to you again. However, while you are not in control of how other people act, you are in control of how you react to it.

There are conservative Christians who consider me to be the tailpipe of Satan's towtruck, and I've managed to live with that. If you consider me to be a superstitious idiot, I can live with that, too. You have freedom of conscience and freedom of speech. It is not important to me that everyone "make nice" with each other. Conflict is healthy and creative.

It is important to me, however, that everyone have equal freedom of conscience and freedom of speech. Honest disagreement with and criticism of another's views is simulating to freedom of thought. Emotional intimidation, heaping scorn on someone for having an opinion you disagree with, discourages freedom of thought. You have freedom to scorn people you regard as believing silly things, and you have freedom to heap verbal scorn upon them. You do not have the freedom to do so without getting criticized yourself. When you get such criticism, for Pete's sake, don't whine about it.

Zeda

I believe that most theists dislike atheists because they think that morals can only come from God and the Bible. They believe that without someone to tell a person what is right or wrong that most people because of thier "sin nature" will choose to do evil.

The whole problem is with how they view humans and thier worldview. Most see humans as sinful, depraved and guilty without God. This is built into the religion, and until Christians can see value in Humans as they are without God, they are going to see non-theists as being evil, and unenlightened.

I have to say I really enjoy the conversations here. Maybe I have less at stake because I am an agnostic, but I find most of the posters to be reasonable and interested in how others defend thier world view. There are a few posts from time to time that get a bit heated, but that is to be expected, and in fact more likely to be see on the political forums than the religious ones.

Starboy

I agree that it is a rediculous idea but not for the reasons you suggest. There is a much simpler reason for why atheism will never become the majority position and this because atheism in an of itself is not a belief system. It is not even a side in the religious debate. Lack of belief endorses or rejects nothing. Most atheists hold unique positions. We are mostly independent thinkers and do not represent a monilithic set of beliefs.

Starboy

Biff the unclean

Several things wrong with this. First it is common for the religious to treat their beliefs as fact and as fact they wish to enforce their beliefs upon the rest of us.
Also I consider religion to be a fraud. A con job on an epic scale. And as such it is not desirable that the gullible and the fearful should be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. Different religions are no more a charming diversity than different parasites make for a desirable diversity.

What I have been closely watching, due to the threat they pose, are conservative Christians. The complacency of liberal Christians towards them is more than obvious. Just look at the present state of the Republican party.

The art of misdirection, you will find, works better in a verbal debate than in written ones like this. We are well aware that there are more problems in the world than the one we are talking about. That, however, does not cause the problem under discussion to not be a problem.

Actually I am, to a degree, in control of how other people act towards me. That is why I have the personal policy of never taking shite from anyone.

I consider you to be the victim of a fraud, and I shall do what I can to help you help yourself.

Christians remind me of the schoolyard bullies I met when I first arrived in American from Ireland. The three who terrorized the small and the weak at my new school immediately turned their attentions on me. I talked with an accent, I dressed funny, I wore a cap, I limped, I was put in "the smart class" and I had glasses. They cornered me and started shoving me. They stole my tweed cap, knocked me down and called me names. So I beat the living daylights out of two of them while the third ran away.
After that these schoolyard bullies always complained that I picked on them and that I didn't fight fair. Like Christians when faced by Atheists it never occurred to them that they were the ones who brought the fight